(2007-05-11) — In an effort to win the support of conservative evangelical Christians, Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney today pledged that his “kooky Mormon beliefs” would not affect the sober judgment required to serve as the nation’s chief executive.
“Like most Americans, including many evangelical Christians, I have learned how to segregate my faith from my daily life in ways that make me inoffensive to a great number of people,” said Mr. Romney, the former governor of Massachusetts. “So, even though I’m devout in church and I try to live a moral life, you’ll never figure out what I believe about God by how I govern as president.”
Mr. Romney promised that evangelicals could listen to all eight of his future State of the Union addresses and never get a clue that his Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches the following:
– God is not eternal, but was once a man on another planet
– God is married to his goddess wife and has spirit children
– Jesus is the “spirit brother” of Lucifer and all humans are their siblings
– The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are three separate gods
– The Father and the Son each have separate, physical bodies
– The book of Mormon is more accurate than the Bible
– The gospel was lost until Mormon founder Joseph Smith restored it and there is no salvation outside of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
– It is impossible to be saved by God’s grace alone
Mr. Romney acknowledged that these beliefs, and many other Mormon teachings, are mutually-exclusive of so-called “biblical evangelical Christianity” but said, “I think we can all agree that all true Christians believe that God wants us to believe that we’re all true Christians. He’s a big-tent God.”
206 responses so far ↓
1 camojack // May 11, 2007 at 7:38 am
Pretty kooky, all right…
2 Scott Ott // May 11, 2007 at 8:10 am
Romney: ‘Kooky Mormon Beliefs’ Won’t Affect Presidency…
by Scott Ott(2007-05-11) — In an effort to win the support of conservative evangelical Christians, Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney today pledged that his “kooky Mormon beliefs†would not affect the sober judgment required to serve a…
3 camojack // May 11, 2007 at 8:39 am
Some friends of mine, a young couple with three kids, started attending a Mormon Church a few years back…unfortunately. I attended their oldest child’s baptism there, where many of that church’s members went into what I’ll call “proselytization overdrive”.
Actually, she’s more into it than he is; I asked her that day whatever became of those special golden plates that good old Joe Smith “found” in upstate New York and upon which the Book of Mormon was supposedly inscribed. The official story is that after he was done transcribing a portion of them, they went back to God with some angel called Moroni. R-i-g-h-t…
4 JamesonLewis3rd // May 11, 2007 at 8:39 am
God Bless America
5 JamesonLewis3rd // May 11, 2007 at 8:45 am
Well said, Scott. Thank you.
Kookie, Kookie, lend me your comb? (As sung by Connie Stevens, circa 1959)
6 Darthmeister // May 11, 2007 at 8:58 am
The angel Moroni to Joseph Smith, “I know this is going to sound sort of kooky … “
7 JamesonLewis3rd // May 11, 2007 at 8:59 am
After several days of rain (I laid sod on my front and side yards just before it started and during pauses–as usual my timing is impeccable) it is a gorgeous, sunny 67°F morning here in the future home of the (Dallas) Cowboys.
8 Darthmeister // May 11, 2007 at 9:03 am
BTW, the “bio” on the angel Moroni can be found here
Having had my laugh I will admit to this, if it came down to it I would rather see Romney in the Oval Office than sHrillary or Osama Obama.
9 JamesonLewis3rd // May 11, 2007 at 9:06 am
It seems to me that there was a time when the USA was a “melting pot”–I guess I had it wrong.
10 JamesonLewis3rd // May 11, 2007 at 9:15 am
It looks like there’s a rift in the NYT and France romance.
11 Darthmeister // May 11, 2007 at 9:25 am
Mormons don’t worship Moroni (at least I don’t think that do), but I always wondered how they rationalized Colossians 2:18 – Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind.
… and
Galations 1:6-9 – I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
I think Joseph Smith should have paid more attention to the Bible than some seductive spirit being.
Muslims always speak of Mohammed’s later revelations which are a superior interpretation of the Bible. So when I hear this apologia for Islam I tell Muslims that if they are really into latter day revelations they ought to convert to Mormonism.
12 gafisher // May 11, 2007 at 9:55 am
Spot on, Scott. One of the many troubling aspects of the Romney bid is how supposedly devout “Christians” (including popular talk-show hosts) defend Mormonism as “just another system of Christianity.” Make no mistake, the “Jesus” (Savior) “Christ” (annointed) of Mormonism is not the Jesus Christ of Christianity.
Hard to admit it, but Sharpton might have got it right.
13 gafisher // May 11, 2007 at 9:58 am
Darth Re: #11 and your closing paragraph — except for the weaponry, there’s not all that much difference.
14 Mack // May 11, 2007 at 10:02 am
I was going to answer L@Y from the last thread. But he was right about one thing, Kerry managed to make the Purple heart and even the Silver Star worthless by his actions. Funny that he still hasn’t released his military records yet.
We could do a lot worse than Mitt Romney even among the Republican candidates. I can see supporting him over John McCain who is a Rino at best and even Rudy G. Who beyond his prosecutor days hasn’t really impressed me.
15 Libby Gone // May 11, 2007 at 10:19 am
I believe everyone has the right to believe in God however they choose, just don’t try to sway my beliefs. My only question about Mormons is why on earth would anyone want more than ONE wife!!!!!
Seems like gluttony for punishment.
LOL.
16 its-just-me // May 11, 2007 at 10:22 am
Re: #13 -
I think there are a few key differences between Islam & Mormonism…
1. Mormons don’t try to kill people to take over the world – it’s more of a slow seduction (emphasis on “family values,” being nice, etc., using lots of print & broadcast media)
2. Even Muslims consider it blasphemous to even THINK that they’ll eventually become spirit gods of their own little planets!
3. Mormons have lots of children (bodies for “god’s” spirit children to occupy) without sending any of them out to be blown to bits.
17 a440hz // May 11, 2007 at 10:25 am
Scott–
Thanks for putting the truth out there.
When I told my mom, who is Methodist, that Mormons believed that if they were good enough, that they could progress into gods themselves, she was shocked.
I think a lot of people think that the LDS church is just another Christian denomination. I mean, it does say JESUS CHRIST in big letters on their signs, right?
Well, they are definitely trying to work the postmodern, pluralistic angle these days. The less people look closely into Mormon beliefs, the more the Mormons can pretend to be Christian. They are not Christian in the historic sense of the term, since many of the points you emphasized are radical departures from historic Christianity.
Again, thanks for putting light in a dark place.
Soli Deo Gloria!
Joe
18 its-just-me // May 11, 2007 at 10:45 am
BTW can’t remember who first posted the link, but in case any of you missed it…
This is too funny to pass up: http://www.qubetv.tv/videos/detail/80
(Don’t know how to put in a link that you click on – I’m pretty low-tech.)
19 its-just-me // May 11, 2007 at 10:45 am
Hey, I guess it’s clickable anyway.
Cool.
20 Ms RightWing, Ink // May 11, 2007 at 10:59 am
Wait. There’s some nice young men downstairs knocking on my door. I’ll be back in a minute
21 Laughing@You // May 11, 2007 at 11:01 am
Kerry allows Navy release of military, medical records
Show numerous commendations
By Michael Kranish, Globe Staff | June 7, 2005
On May 20, Kerry signed a document called Standard Form 180, authorizing the Navy to send an ”undeleted” copy of his ”complete military service record and medical record” to the Globe. Asked why he delayed signing the form for so long, Kerry said in a written response: ”The call for me to sign a 180 form came from the same partisan operatives who were lying about my record on a daily basis on the Web and in the right-wing media. Even though the media was discrediting them, they continued to lie. I felt strongly that we shouldn’t kowtow to them and their attempts to drag their lies out.”
Of course, it’s not like he was too drugged up to take a required physical, or anything like that.
22 Prufrock // May 11, 2007 at 11:06 am
Points to be made:
Kookiness is largely a function of familiarity. The kookiness of “general” Christian belief (if you step back a bit and look) is no greater or smaller than anything listed here. Glass houses and stones, Scott. To anyone without their own witness of its truth, the idea that our actions have anything to do with some eternal concept of sin or consequence is pretty farfetched. I deal with people who think this way on a daily basis.
“Biblical” is a thorny term – many of those points are inaccurately phrased (in this case, nitpickiness is important), and the ones that are correctly phrased are consistent with the Bible, though not with the Nicene Creed.
From Joseph Smith’s words:
“And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of Him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives! For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—”
No need to believe in human constructs like the idea of the Trinity, if you’ve met the Man Himself.
It is fine to be in disagreement with doctrine – it is another thing to be snide about sincerely held beliefs, and the legitimate faith of a group of dedicated Christians (yes, Christians). Remember well that your creeds were in a similar position not long ago. I’m sitting a couple of miles from John Calvin’s original pulpit and the Reformers’ Wall – sobering reminders of the history of Christian restoration movements.
23 Laughing@You // May 11, 2007 at 11:11 am
I say go with the Morman. That is, unless his children have been photographed drunk and rolling on the floor in a bar.
But then, it really doesn’t matter away, does it?
24 its-just-me // May 11, 2007 at 11:25 am
Prufrock-
Doesn’t the fact that we have laws tell you something about a concept of sin (wrongdoing) and consequences?
25 JamesonLewis3rd // May 11, 2007 at 11:33 am
“Biblical” is only a “thorny” term for those (LDS and JW, for instance) deluded enough to think that God’s Word is bogus.
I pray often for such as these because here’s what Almighty God has to say to them:
The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.~~Revelation 22:17-19
Jesus Christ is Lord of all.
26 conserve-a-tips // May 11, 2007 at 11:36 am
I’m going to wade in it here and do so with gusto as usual, not afraid of the ridicule and tomatoes because we’re all anonymous, right???? giggle
OK, so Romney is Mormon and we recognize that this is not according to Christ’s teachings or to God’s commands. We have a dilemma for whom to vote and as Christians, want to honor God and do what is right. So, the answer is prayer. We pray for the Lord to guide us in that decision. And what if the answer is Romney?? How can that be? Just remember how God used leaders to accomplish His purposes. In II Chronicles and Ezra, the history of the fall of Jerusalem is outlined, as well as the exile of the remnant under Babylonian rule until Persia came into power. The Persian king was Cyrus, and though he was an idol worshipper, he was used by God and made the way for the Jews to rebuild the temple and have a place to worship. It was later completed under another pagan king, Darius, and eventually, the nation of Israel was able to recognize its sin and have a nationwide confession. And so, with God, all things are possible. I will be praying and encourage all Christians to do the same. The answer may be to vote for Romney, or possibly not to vote at all. We’ll see.
27 Maggie // May 11, 2007 at 11:37 am
Thanks Scott,
I’ll now have to re-evaluate my choice for president.sigh……
28 RedPepper // May 11, 2007 at 11:53 am
♪ “I learned how to raise my voice in anger
Yeah, but look at my face, ain’t this a smile?
I’m happy when life’s good
And when it’s bad I cry
I’ve got values but I don’t know how or why
I’m looking for me
You’re looking for you
We’re looking in at each other
And we don’t know what to do
They call me The Seeker
I’ve been searching low and high
I won’t get to get what I’m after
Till the day I die†♪
– from The Seeker, by the British rock group ‘The Who’
29 Laughing@You // May 11, 2007 at 11:53 am
“We have a dilemma for whom to vote and as Christians, want to honor God and do what is right.”
Too bad you didn’t think about that last time, ain’t it?
30 conserve-a-tips // May 11, 2007 at 12:04 pm
L@Y, are you God? No?
Are you arrogant? Yes.
31 Prufrock // May 11, 2007 at 12:09 pm
@its-just-me – Nope. Human laws and consequences are different all over, and inconsistent. Dig a bit deeper.
@JamesonLewis3rd – Go look at your New Testament chronology and figure out when Rev. 22 was written.
Since the Bible is the word of God, and the central witness of the divinity of the Savior, it is offensive to say I consider it bogus. End of discussion.
32 Laughing@You // May 11, 2007 at 12:14 pm
“L@Y, are you God? No?
Are you arrogant? Yes.”
That seem a bit judgmental to me, unlike a recipient of Grace.
Do you think you like a co-God?
Your theology is as wide as the sea, but as shallow as a pond; still here, it is impressive to most.
33 conserve-a-tips // May 11, 2007 at 12:16 pm
Maggie, as I said, I am praying because it looks like we have to make a choice between someone who is “morally” upright, albeit a pagan, or morally debase yet calls himself a Christian. Giuliani has had multiple marriages, has committed adultery and worse on my list, refuses to stand up for the most innocent of God’s creation – babies. Christ said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” He cautions that anyone who would lead a child astray faces severe judgement. To me, the character of our nation is rooted in how we view life. McCain is “lukewarm” and of no use whatsoever, and even if Fred Thompson runs, he has the reputation of a womanizer and hasn’t stood up for his faith in any way shape or form if he has one. So there you have it. A pagan or CINO’s. To me, CINO is worse then RINO and so what do you do?? Pray. It may be that America is going to get something so bad that we are either going to have to repent or fall.
34 its-just-me // May 11, 2007 at 12:21 pm
So, prufrock, we make rules just for fun, and not because people all over (even though the laws may be a bit different) have an innate sense of right and wrong?
35 Maggie // May 11, 2007 at 12:21 pm
Amen CAT!(re #33)
I can remember my Dad being fearful of JFK turning our country to one ruled by the Pope.Somehow we survived.
36 conserve-a-tips // May 11, 2007 at 12:32 pm
L@Y, we are commanded to judge those who claim to know Christ and hold them accountable and your claim to know whether I prayed about my vote last time or that God did not have a hand in the election of GWB indicates an arrogance and an assumption that either you are God or that God is not in control. I call a spade a spade and like to shovel out the manure, which seems to be pretty deep in your case. I see your constant use of “grace” as an excuse for sin.
37 Ms RightWing, Ink // May 11, 2007 at 12:42 pm
Rev 22:18 ¶ For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.
Rev 22:20 ¶ He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
’nuff said
38 Ms RightWing, Ink // May 11, 2007 at 12:44 pm
sorry, but y’all can call me preach@you. Ha ha! (Simpson’s laugh)
That’s P U to you. Ha ha!
39 Fred Sinclair // May 11, 2007 at 1:00 pm
At an earlier time in my life I did an in depth study of “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints”.
Scott did good with his piece today – a few things that he omitted , or didn’t know.-
a. As you are, God once was – As God is, you can become and be the God of your own planet.
b. The war in heaven was between Jesus and his Brother Satan who went to war with each other as to which of them the Father would send to earth to save mankind. (Jesus won and that is the bone of contention between Satan and God even to this day).
c. Wives married in the Temple with veil. must be buried wearing the veil. On resurrection day the men will be resurrected first. If he deems his wife to have been a “worthy” wife he will go to her grave, remove the veil and only then will she be resurrected. (unfaithfulness, arguing, discontent and/or rebellion will automatically render her “unworthy”.) This is their heavy hammer used to keep wives “in line” and subject to total obedience to their husbands.
This is in a higher level of teaching and the average Morman does not know about it. If you get into the fifth and sixth level of education – only then will you get to learn these things.
Heirborn Ranger
40 conserve-a-tips // May 11, 2007 at 1:11 pm
Fred, and so we have:
A man who thinks Man is a god
A man who thinks that Mary is the only route to God
A man who doesn’t know how he feels about God
A man who doesn’t talk about God
A man who thinks God made blacks better then everybody else
and a woman who thinks she is God.
Maybe we need to repent as a nation????
41 JamesonLewis3rd // May 11, 2007 at 1:20 pm
RE: #31~~
Your patronizing suggestion that I do not know all of the facts regarding Revelation demonstrates quite well the attitude of most cults–that they are “above” all other men.
As far as voting for Romney goes–if it were to come to that–I would do so because I have more than a mustard seed of faith that Almighty God would lead him (Romney) to lead in the way that is right and would not permit him to impose his “religion” on me.
42 wildhowd // May 11, 2007 at 1:23 pm
or maybe we just need to stop for a moment and pray
43 Shelly // May 11, 2007 at 1:41 pm
Face it folks, we usually have to vote for the lesser of two evils. While that might be difficult to do based on theology, we are not electing a theologian-in-chief. We are electing a Commander-in-Chief, and I will give great consideration to our most courageous when I cast mine. Romney’s religion may be the least like mine, but his behavior as a husband and father are the closest to my faith’s standards. Go figure.
44 Fred Sinclair // May 11, 2007 at 1:44 pm
c-a-t: Jonah |ˈjÅnÉ™| (in the Bible) a Hebrew minor prophet. He was called by God to preach in Nineveh, but disobeyed and attempted to escape by sea; in a storm he was thrown overboard as a bringer of bad luck and swallowed by a great fish, only to be saved and finally succeed in his mission. • a book of the Bible telling of Jonah.
We may well be in the position of Nineveh and God may be about to bring His judgement to America – He may use the Ishmalites to do it.
Ishmael |ˈi sh mÄ“É™l; -mÄ-| (in the Bible) a son of Abraham, by his wife Sarah’s maid, Hagar, driven away with his mother after the birth of Sarah’s son Isaac (Gen. 16:12). Ishmael (or Ismail) is also important in Islamic belief as the traditional ancestor of Muhammad and of the Arab peoples. DERIVATIVES Ishmaelite |-ËŒlÄ«t| noun
I am praying that God will continue to show His mercy and deliver America from the liberals among us. I believe them to be a far greater threat to America than the Ishmalites.
The Ishmalites merely want to kill us. The liberals will be satisfied with nothing less than the slavery of Communism. To them, it’s all about control from womb to tomb. (re: Cuba, N. Korea, N. Viet Nam, Russia, China, ScrappleFace Trolls etc.).
Heirborn Ranger
45 conserve-a-tips // May 11, 2007 at 1:45 pm
Shelly, we have a friend who owns a business and he says that of all the people with whom he does business, he will take a Mormon anyday because they offer the most honest, upfront dealings and consideration of anyone out there. Doesn’t say much for us Christians, huh?
46 Mack // May 11, 2007 at 1:53 pm
Funny L@Y how the Wall Street Journal’s “Opinion Journal daily points out the Kerry still hasn’t signed that document that you claim he did. I would think you or maybe the fake Frenchman ought to correct that if it were true. As the experiment was successful I no longer have to read your crap. Have a nice day.
As for the Mormons, I too quote the Bible in saying “by their fruit you will know them.” In Utah they have quite a health care system. If some one ends up in the hospital or needing medical treatment and they can’t afford it the Mormon Church picks up the bill. No questions asked. I had a friend who was traveling through there once on I-15 and after an accident spent time in one of their hospitals.
Most Mormons I have known were upright people who didn’t shove their faith on others but rather tried to live the teachings of the Bible. Whether or not we believe as they do I see a lot of them who I wouldn’t mind having for neighbors where as I see a lot of politicians who claim to be Christians I would.
The biggest mistake we as human beings make is to judge a group of people by the actions of a few, this usually the worst of the bunch. I see it in the media all the time when they talk about the Middle East and paint all Arabs or all Muslims with the same brush. They, like the Mormons are no more all like minded than all Americans are Republicans.
47 Shelly // May 11, 2007 at 2:06 pm
Speaking of the Romneys, did anyone see Mrs. Romney on FoxNews last week? Wow! To be married for 38 years and raise five sons to be productive adults, and look like she does, she must be doing something right.
48 EXT // May 11, 2007 at 2:13 pm
What I find most troubling about Romney is that he was governor of the Liberal Republic of Massachusetts; a religion of itself. When one lives in a religious community THAT devout, some of the “principles” of the dominant faith (Liberalism) have to rub off on you!
Yeah, I know he was elected as a Republican but living in Taxachusetts has a mind-altering effect on even the strongest!
49 JamesonLewis3rd // May 11, 2007 at 2:20 pm
RE: #43~~
Shelly~~
Yes, it should be about the integrity of the man person and his their track record.
50 JamesonLewis3rd // May 11, 2007 at 2:23 pm
Strike-through did not work on my comment, I see.
manhis51 Darthmeister // May 11, 2007 at 2:24 pm
Since there are trolls trying to salvage John Kerry’s reputation (I thought the 2004 elections were over), here are some thoughts about John Kerry from anti-war leftists on L@Y side of the aisle. They even make fun of George W. Bush so they must be authorities, right? According to them I voted for a preppie dunce selling ounce bags of pot (according to one source … figures) who honorably served in the Texas Air National Guard flying the widowmaker F-102 Delta Dagger, at least I didn’t vote for some feckless war criminal … Hail the Conquering War Criminal.
52 Shelly // May 11, 2007 at 2:28 pm
Hadn’t been to IMAO in a few days, and just discovered yesterday’s Fred Thompson fact. This is outstanding:
*Fred Thompson has on multiple occasions solved problems like Maria.*
53 Darthmeister // May 11, 2007 at 2:48 pm
To my knowledge the Boston Globe or Kranish have yet to produce a complete copy of the SF-180 form that John Kerry is purported to have signed.
And Michael Kranish of the Boston Globe is a known shill for John Kerry being his official campaign hagiographer, so his objectivity is at best questionable. I would like to see Kranish release a copy of the actual SF-180 document in question on the Internet. Has Kranish done that and if so what is the site where the document can be viewed?
Until then here’s the best information I can get on this issue:
Jerome Corsi, co-author with O’Neill of the best-seller “Unfit for Command,” believes Kerry did not sign the SF 180, because the form does not have an exception clause.
“It’s a blanket release of documents to the American public,” Corsi said. “This is not a Standard Form 180 procedure. I think he just called up the Navy and told them to send documents to the Boston Globe. I want to see the form posted on his website.”
Some Kerry supporters suggested the file’s transcript of his grades at Yale, revealing grades inferior to President Bush’s at the same school, were the reason.
But critic B.G. Burkett, a Vietnam vet and author of the book “Stolen Valor, said Kerry’s authorized release Monday is a “continued cover up of his true military service” because it doesn’t allow anyone to retrieve the full documentation.
54 JamesonLewis3rd // May 11, 2007 at 2:51 pm
City Journal has a commentary on Hugh Hewitt’s book about Romney.
55 Laughing@You // May 11, 2007 at 3:29 pm
Conserve-a-tips:
I must have misunderstood you; do you mean to say God Almighty told you to vote for George W. Bush?
56 blackhawk452 // May 11, 2007 at 3:45 pm
Scott, I have been a big booster of yours for a long time. But the last thing we need, at this pass in the Gramscian Strategy for the destruction of Faith, is for Christians to begin ridiculing one anothers’ Faiths.
57 Laughing@You // May 11, 2007 at 3:50 pm
Oh Mack,
Thou subtle, perjur’d, false, disloyal man!
-Taken from: The Two Gentlemen of Verona
“… signed that document that you claim he did.†I didn’t say he did, I wasn’t there, were you? Unlike you, I posted an opposing quote; then speculated why Bush failed to accomplish a physical examination.
“As the experiment was successful I no longer have to read your crap. Have a nice day.â€
You dismissed me; then you go on to add three more paragraphs, with the final statement being wholly hostile to the very principals of American government.
Well puffy, I come and go at my pleasure not yours.
58 JamesonLewis3rd // May 11, 2007 at 3:54 pm
“Faith” is often used as a euphemism for “religion” and this usage is misleading and mistaken.
My “faith” is not a “religion”, it is the gift of God:
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—~~Ephesians 2:8
Christianity is not a “religion” and Mormonism is not Christianity.
59 DrivebyMeteor // May 11, 2007 at 3:56 pm
The old folks used to tell us, “Never argue about religion or politics.”
But we ignored the old folks, and we argued about politics till we were hoarse from shouting at each other.
But apart from our sore throats, nothing bad happened.
And we said, “What do those old fools know anyway!”
Then we decided to argue about religion and politics!
Old folks, forgive us . . .
60 Mack // May 11, 2007 at 4:15 pm
Thank you Darthmeister for bolstering my point.
61 tomg // May 11, 2007 at 4:21 pm
So, can a gay guy marry two or three partners in Mass. now?
Actually, I’ve never had a bit of trouble with any mormon.
Re 52 – thanks for the laugh, Shelly.
62 tomg // May 11, 2007 at 4:23 pm
Fred Thompson’s gravitas can suck light out of a black hole.
because…
Fred! is a singularity.
63 Laughing@You // May 11, 2007 at 4:45 pm
You tell me, is this John Kerry’s Form 180. Is it the one in question?
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/010795.php
64 Maggie // May 11, 2007 at 4:48 pm
Shelly re #47,
Yes,I saw Mrs. Romney.She also said that she has MS.
Personally,I look to God for direction and seek advice from the Bible and my fellow church members.Never do I look to the President for spiritual guidance. Gov.Romney has lived an exemplary(sp?) life.He has been faithful to his family and was a great governor in Mass……for goodness sake. I believe he will make a fine president.
Two of the first tier GOP candidates were unfaithful to their wives.Somehow,I find it difficult to respect a man who will cheat on wife.
Timothy writes concerning a pastor that he should be the husband of one wife and if a man cannot rule well his own home,how can he rule the things of God.
We might ask the same thing of our candidates.IMHO,a cheater is a liar and unstable.
65 Fred Sinclair // May 11, 2007 at 5:05 pm
blackhawk452 – I sincerely doubt that Scott or any other Christian would ever ridicule another Christian’s faith.
However Joseph Smith went to great lengths to disassociate “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints” from Christianity. Claiming that all other churches were wrong and that salvation was to be found only in his church and then only if you were a “worthy” member.
They specifically worship a different Jesus (who was born of Mary and fathered by “The Holy Ghost” who took on the human form and sired “Jesus” in the natural manner, common to man.) Jesus, who previously lived in heaven with God the Father, the Holy Ghost and his brother Satan came in spirit and occupied the body of Mary’s baby. Now your average Mormon knows little or nothing of this teaching as they are not qualified for higher levels of instruction, knowledge and information.
Morrmons bear the same relationship to Christianity as Hinduism, Buddhism, Fascism, Communism and The Church of Liberalism do. (i.e. – none) Pobably less in fact, as they are under a false flag.
To ridicule a faith is to look at the excesses in history like the Crusades when Christians were put to the sword because they wore turbans, the torture during the inquisition of people found guilty of befriending a Jew, or suspected of being a secret Jew, then here in Salem burning innocent women at the stake. suspected of being a witch. or Jim Jones causing hundreds of people to drink poison.
But someone who goes “down the aisle” signs a pledge card, buys a big leather covered Bible to prominently carry, joins the choir and sings “Jesus Loves Me” as loudly as anyone, teaches Sunday School and then goes home to beat his wife and kids, sits down to cheat on his income tax, continues with underhanded shoddy business deals – There would be cause to question his Christianity.
Same with many who are church members because it’s good for business or he heard it was a good place to meet girls, his wife belongs – it’s a family tradition etc. So while we are cautioned against judgementalism we are also invited to be fruit inspectors. And to break fellowship with such a person.
Heirborn Ranger
66 conserve-a-tips // May 11, 2007 at 5:22 pm
Maggie, my brother-in-law worked for EDS back in the Ross Perot days. He said that when he was hired, he had a meeting with the “Big Guy” which was a rather pleasant surprise. Perot was amiable, considerate and right to the point. He told my B-I-L what he expected, including that his employes be faithful to their wives. Perot said that it was his experience that any man who would cheat on his wife, would cheat on the company and that if Perot found out there were any husbandly shenanigans going on, he would be dismissed. Every anniversary they were given a gift certificate to go to very expensive restaurants, a card and a kudos. Perot was smarter then anyone ever gave him credit for.
67 conserve-a-tips // May 11, 2007 at 5:25 pm
Stupid media. L@Y wishes, but alas…sucker!
68 conserve-a-tips // May 11, 2007 at 5:26 pm
Hmm….that link didn’t show up. Don’t know what I did.
69 Laughing@You // May 11, 2007 at 5:31 pm
Well reasoned piece Fred; but don’t you think that last part was kinda hard on a certain sanctimonious twosome.
Then again how come Mitt’s act so much more Christian than a certain set of twins. Can’t the man rule his own house well, either?
70 Laughing@You // May 11, 2007 at 5:33 pm
Kids
71 Darthmeister // May 11, 2007 at 5:41 pm
Yes those are the SF-180 forms but with the following unusual caveats. From the same link:
UPDATE: The only apparent anomaly in the Form 180s is that they only authorize the release of Kerry’s active duty records, not his reserve records. This could well be important, in that Kerry’s antiwar activities occurred when he was a member of the reserves. On the other hand, some think that the language of the 180 is broad enough that the Navy may have released Kerry’s reserve records, even though not specifically instructed to.
The people who know, of course, are the reporters to whom the documents were sent. This is a very weird procedure–authorizing the records to be released, but only to specified reporters. It raises obvious questions: did the reporters discuss their role with Kerry or his representative before they were designated to receive the records? Were they required to agree not to make the records public, but only to report on them? What other discussions did they have with Kerry or his representatives? Are they willing to release the records, or at a minimum give us an inventory of what they received so that we can assess the completeness of the disclosure? I have phone calls in to two of the reporters, and will attempt to interview them.
Thanks for the link. I guess as long as the reporters control the documents in accordance with John Kerry’s instructions, there is truly no to know if there has been full disclosure. One has to wonder why it took John Kerry so long to sign form 180 (years) and what kind of machinations may have occurred with respect to which documents the reporters would make public. Maybe they have already. Could be another kerfuffle.
72 Laughing@You // May 11, 2007 at 5:49 pm
So Dink,
Do you think he did sign a DD Form 180 after all?
73 GnuCarSmell // May 11, 2007 at 5:50 pm
John Edwards has been down-graded to a sub-prime candidate. Details sketchy, but something to do with hedgehogs.
74 The Great Santini // May 11, 2007 at 7:37 pm
Yeah, Mormonism is a non-Christian cult. So? Romney is running for President, not for leadership of the cult. He hasn’t invited anyone to join him as a fellow cult member, or to come to church with him, or to read the Book of Mormon for spiritual guidance, or to fly off to Mormon heaven with Moroni.
What he has done is articulate a message which any conservative–social, economic, or both–would approve. He’s done that with wit, intelligence, class, clarity, coherence, and cogency. Anybody see his appearance with Jay Leno on the “Tonight” show? ‘Nuff said.
Since he’s too formidable on the political issues and won’t back down from them, his opponents change the subject by attacking his religious beliefs. Such intellectual dishonesty is despicable, not to mention devious, underhanded, and un-American.
Who, on the (R) side of the ‘08 President ledger is better than Romney and can beat Hildebeest? Reviewing the bidding:
McCain–might be able to beat Mrs. Bill the Zipper, but he can’t be trusted. (BICRA, the Gang of 14…need I go on?)
Giuliani–might beat Wife of Zip, but his arrogance in insisting that (R)s accept his pro-abortion stance, anathema to pro-lifers, will split the party and render moot any supposed challenge to the Ham-Hocked One. Hard to replace those much-maligned pro-lifers…you know, the ones who show up and vote en masse, but who’ll do neither if Rudy’s the (R) ‘08 Anointed One.
Fred D. Thompson–looks and sounds promising; could beat Ms. Zip, too; [yawn] call me when he actually takes the plunge, and we’ll talk
The Spear Carrier (R)s–only Huckabee and Hunter stand out in this group, until you realize that their cahnces of beating Shrillary are Slim and None–and Slim just left town.
Am I enthralled with everything about Romney? Nope. But I don’t expect a candidate worth backing to fit my template for perfection. By design and by law, there’s no religious test for holding political office. Those who look askance at Romney’s religious beliefs need to grow up and get over it.
75 Fred Sinclair // May 11, 2007 at 7:40 pm
L@Y: As was earlier pointed out – “For by grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God and not of works, lest any man should boast” Eph. 2:8,9
I believe that in heaven there will be those wondering “YOU? How did you get here?”
And probably some in hell mumbling to temselves “I thought I had my religion figured out better than this, I joined the church, never cheated on my wife, gave to my church a double tithe, helped little old ladies across streets,never smoked, never touched alcohol, so how did I end up here. I lived my life as a good man, even had a ‘Honk if you love Jesus’ bumper sticker on my car.
And then he will recall “Oh yes, there was that silly billboard that read ‘Jesus said…..no man cometh unto the father but by me.’
and finally it will hit him – “Gee, that’s right, I never really accepted Christ as my Saviour.”
The twins will individually answer to God and I have no idea whether or not either one is or isn’t a Christian. All of us sin, some more than others. “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and cleanse us of all unrighteousness” 1 Jn. 1:9
To sin is one thing, to give one’s self over to a lifestyle of sin is another. A guy, I think his name was Bundy, on death row in Florida. He said that he had accepted Christ after reading the Bible in his cell, if he was honest, I’m sure to see him in heaven.
Mitt and the twins may be in heaven – maybe not. I don’t know, but if they are there it will have nothing to do with what works they did. And everthing to do with what they did with Jesus.
btw – it’s the same for you too.
Heirborn Ranger
76 Darthmeister // May 11, 2007 at 7:50 pm
Yes, it does appear John Kerry did sign SF-180 but apparently not with the intent of full disclosure and maing his full military record truly public. If you notice in Section II the release is a “one time release … to a reporter at the Boston Globe.”
The whole point of signing form 180 was transparency, and yet neither Kranish nor the Boston Globe has publicly released the military records they received from the military authorities … or possibly they have. I haven’t been able to Google the released documents themselves.
Powerline also has this important analysis about Kerry’s military records possibly being “vetted” despite taking two years to sign SF-180. But you’re absolutely right, there is a form SF-180 with John Kerry’s signature on it, that much is now cleared up. I stand corrected on this detail.
77 Darthmeister // May 11, 2007 at 7:56 pm
Good post Santini. Though Mormonism is by definition a Christian cult, Romney should be judged on his past achievements as a public servant. He is winsome, articulate, respects American traditionalism, believes in America’s exceptionalism and is broadly conservative. I personally have little qualms in voting for a man like that … even if he were a “soft atheist”. A conservative atheist respectful of America’s historical Christian roots is more of a fellow warrior in the political cause than a liberal “evangelical” social engineer.
78 MathMom // May 11, 2007 at 9:07 pm
Well stated, Grrrrrrr8 Santini!
Lemme see, now – we’ve had a “born-again Southern Baptist” president who couldn’t stay zipped, and probably never spoke the truth, his “Methodist” wife knowingly enabled all of his bad behavior and lied to the American people about it.
John Kerry and John Edwards both worship at the mirror, Al Gore worships Gaia or something.
Giuliani has been unfaithful and married several times but has huevos of brass when they’re needed, like when facing down the Mob, running a city in the throes of a terrorist attack, putting Boesky in prison after hauling his sorry butt out of his brokerage firm in handcuffs, or turning down a check for $10 million because he believes that we do not need to apologize to some snot-nosed Saudi Princeling about our “fault” in 9/11.
John McCain is a true hero who is twice married, who I would really like to like, but he seems to be having and on-again, off-again affair with Ted Kennedy, and we need someone stable in the Top Job.
Fred Thompson is married to a Barbie Doll half his age and can’t seem to commit to telling us if he’s running. Who knows if he’s Presidential material – I know he can play one on TV.
Romney is a well-spoken Mormon who has been married to his first wife for 36 years, has come up with a free-market solution to universal health care in the People’s Republic of Massachusetts, and has the habit of reading books and learning about our enemy.
What I want in a president is someone who knows our enemies and is willing to kill them. I would be more worried if a Quaker ran for president than that a Mormon is running. And someone who has actually got a working solution to health care that is not a socialized “Hillarycare” approach – well, fine by me that he has religious beliefs that I do not share.
I’m a Lutheran by birth, and don’t believe that praying to the Virgin Mary is of any value whatsoever, but I don’t mind that Rudy Giuliani, a Catholic, might find solace in that practice.
What we need to decide is if by standing on some “principle” that causes us to reject Romney out of hand because of his religious beliefs we are willing to accept another Clinton, who is truly a Marxist in her political beliefs, because of a misplaced desire for doctrinal purity.
In my view, that is not a good trade-off. I’m not electing a pastor, I’m electing a president.
79 Mike // May 11, 2007 at 9:19 pm
Wow, I found myself kind of stunned after reading this post and the comments. I’ve had to think for a while about why, and here are my thoughts:
I’m a Mormon but I don’t mind at all being made fun of in good-natured ways, and most any Mormon is used to enough mean spirited-belittling to not have such a thin skin.
Right when Scrappleface started getting big I ran across it and loved it. I emailed Scott once and asked if it was just him writing or if he had a staff and if he ever considered posting submissions (it seems silly and pretentious now that I ever thought I might write something for Scrappleface, but back then it seemed possible). He personally responded to me, turning me down in such a kind way it made me feel good. Most any time I’ve read Scrappleface I’ve felt a kinship with the implied values and beliefs.
When I read this post it felt like I was walking with a friend, then suddenly that friend stopped and spit on my face. Then reading the subsequent comments I feel like others with him stopped to spit on me and jeer at me too. Like I said, I felt stunned.
Here’s a quote from Joseph Smith from 1843:
“If it has been demonstrated that I have been willing to die for a “Mormon,†I am bold to declare before Heaven that I am just as ready to die in defending the rights of a Presbyterian, a Baptist, or a good man of any other denomination; for the same principle which would trample upon the rights of the Latter-day Saints would trample upon the rights of the Roman Catholics, or of any other denomination.â€
Before you start spitting on people around you because they have different beliefs, look at what’s going on in the world. You might want to ponder again who your friends really are and who your enemies really are. You might be spitting on a friend. I know many people of other faiths that are more Christ-like than I am, and by my knowing them it increases my desire to be a good person and try and follow Christ more fully. You don’t have to share the same doctrine to share basic Christian values.
80 Fred Sinclair // May 11, 2007 at 9:21 pm
Well said MathMom – I would not hesitate to vote for Mitt over anyone he ran against. John F. Kennedy didn’t bring his religion to the presidency and I doubt Romney would either.
I’m willing to pull out all the stops and do whatever it takes to block a Democrat win in 08.
Of course my preference would be a Duncan Hunter/Condi Rice ticket or some such.
Heirborn Ranger
81 JamesonLewis3rd // May 11, 2007 at 9:21 pm
Personally, I applaud Scott Ott for this post.
He speaks the truth, plain and simple, dispelling with great succinctness a heinous myth regarding Christianity perpetrated by the Leftists and MSM, among others. Specifically:
“…..all true Christians believe that God wants us to believe that we’re all true Christians. He’s a big-tent God.”
82 blackhawk452 // May 11, 2007 at 9:24 pm
And if every word in the Book of Mormon is in praise of Jeusu Christ and His Mission, and every meeting begins with an invocation of Jesus Christ and ends with asking a blessing by Jesus Christ, how are they not Christians?
If we followed the injunction in Revelations about adding to Scripture we would still all be Jews.
And what I see is an ugly return to sectarian divisions and bible-bashing on points of doctrine.
What I do NOT see is any attention paid to Matthew 7:3
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
And maybe we Christians need to pay more attention to the Teachings of the Master than to using them as weapons in our pursuit of self-justification.
83 MathMom // May 11, 2007 at 9:31 pm
Mike (#79)
I was stunned by this post, too.
84 JamesonLewis3rd // May 11, 2007 at 9:36 pm
If the Truth feels like spit or stuns you or pokes you in the eye, well…..Amen, the Holy Spirit is at work.
85 MathMom // May 11, 2007 at 9:39 pm
#84,
…or someone could just be saying nasty things about other people.
86 JamesonLewis3rd // May 11, 2007 at 9:51 pm
RE: #85~~
I haven’t seen anything “nasty”. Maybe, from our resident troll but I don’t read his/her comments.
No one has repudiated any of the points made in the original post and the thread which follows; rather, I have seen ad hominem, straw men and intolerance for those who adhere to the Word of Almighty God.
87 conserve-a-tips // May 11, 2007 at 10:00 pm
Mike, I can understand your feelings and I can understand why you would be uncomfortable with the post. And I do not believe in making fun of Mormons. However, it seems that you have no understanding of our basic Christian faith and what it means. In a phrase: “Anything added to the Cross is legalism.” The Christian faith of the Bible says that none of us can come to the Father except through Christ and that it is a gift from God, not by anything we have done, because as human beings, we have a tendency to boast about how good we’ve been. There are none of us who can be good enough to stand in God’s presence because He is perfect and we are not, and, in essence, we would stain Him. As Bible believing Christians we recognize Jesus as God dwelling among men. I would love to explain to you where we come up with that, and hear some of your views, so if you would like to, you can email me at lucky7charm@yahoo.com.
88 northernal // May 11, 2007 at 10:14 pm
When you are in the middle of both a cultural war and an actual shooting war it might be best not to go out of your way to insult your allies, even if don’t really think they are your friends.
89 Loryienne // May 11, 2007 at 10:21 pm
For one who worries that the Mormon religion will somehow control the good judgement of a President who was a member can be refuted very easily. Harry Reid is a Mormon as well as Mitt Romney. The differences in their political beliefs and actions is mind boggling!
It is strange to come to this site regularly and feel totally united with its values (especially its exposure of the sheer wrongness of Liberalism)–and then find that my own religious beliefs are mocked. It makes me sad.
I’ve been a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints my entire life. I’ve attended its meetings weekly some 98% of my entire life (illness being the main exception). I study the Bible and our other scriptures nearly daily.
Therefore, I consider myself somewhat an expert of the LDS faith. I have found it to be good. I feel clean inside every week as I meet with other people who want to be their best–who want to increase their faith in Christ, repent of their sins, learn to forgive others for their trespasses against us, and increase our capacity to serve others and lift their lives. I have been taught that service to others is essential to living a good life. We are also taught to be honest in our dealings, to strive to be self-sufficient–both physically and spiritually–physically by supporting ourselves and maintaining good health and spiritually by knowing the Lord’s words and through prayer and contemplation that allows us to hear His personal guidance in our lives. We are taught to be morally clean and faithful to our spouse. Making our family life happy and righteous is of top priority.
As a young child, I was disturbed to believe that “only Mormons go to heaven”–not a message said in so many words, but we do believe the ordinances are essential for qualifying for the highest part of heaven. As my understanding matured, I realized that our beliefs were far more merciful than most faiths. First, we believed that everyone either in this life or in the next will have a total understanding and choice–hence our rigorous practice of temple work for the dead. It is a work of love that we believe gives the opportunity for exaltation to every single person who has lived. It expands our love to everyone–and does not shut any doors,
We also believe that our Heavenly Father has prepared glorious places for nearly all of His children. We will find those glorious places by giving our sins to Jesus Christ and trusting in Him. There is no other way but by Jesus Christ–and eventually every knee will bow and acknowledge Him as our Savior. That may take thousands of years for some. A small number will never be willing to follow Him, however. Their place is Hell.
We, as a people, struggle with our relations with others. It is easy to be a clique–our common beliefs give us an incredible comfort with each other–plus our regular worship and geographic organization makes us close friends. We discuss regularly how to break our habits that may hurt others and make them feel excluded. We feel heartsick about that.
On the other hand, we are taught to share our beliefs. That balance is hard–how to share what you love with all of your heart and not be pushy. And how to not be pushy and yet be assertive enough to hold our beliefs up where they can bless others. We struggle. Those of us who are not social ept do it badly. It is not easy to proselyte, but the Lord requires it. He commanded his followers to feed His sheep.
One difference I have seen over my lifetime is our understanding of other Christian faiths. Joseph Smith reports them being “wrong,” but I think, we as a Church have humbled ourselves some in coming to recognize that amount of truth held by other Christian religions. Before you say, “Aha. Gotcha with this one,” please tell me which servants of God in the Bible were perfect and followed Christ perfectly. We are humans following the only perfect God. That is the best we can do.
All of my life, however, we were taught that when other religions criticized us, we were not to criticize back. Instead, we were to stay positive and live in such a way that our love demonstrated our discipleship.
As far as your list goes, I would like to ask, “How long is Eternity? Do you think you have a complete grasp of all that happened, and will happen … over Eternity? And what is wrong with the belief that we, as human kind, are part of a family? In this world, where hatred abounds, I would think that belief could help us cope.”
I could debate the rest of the list, but I hope that the sharing of my experience is a rebuttal of sorts.
I would like to close with the observation that you can be born into a religion, but you still have to gain a true conviction. I have a conviction that has come through prayer. I have feelings in my heart that words are not adequate to describe that tell me that what I belong to is true and good. I have felt my Heavenly Father’s and Savior’s love in incredibly real, loving, and often peaceful ways.
You may tell me that I am not one of you other Christians, but I don’t believe it. I also believe that we have never needed to work together so badly, as we do today.
90 its-just-me // May 11, 2007 at 10:21 pm
blackhawk, even Hindus, Buddhists, and Muslims think of Jesus as a great man/prophet… are they to be considered Christians, too?
91 Laughing@You // May 11, 2007 at 10:27 pm
I have done many years of genealogical research at LDS Family History Centers, and online at their FamilySearch Site, I have always found LDS members to be very helpful, even generous, and considerate of the fact that I am non-LDS researcher.
I am in their debt, and hold them highest regard. Their family life, and the comment of their young men as missionaries demands respect.
I admire George Romney, but I won’t vote for Mitt; but that has nothing whatever to do with his faith.
I am very sorry to see such good people injured.
92 Just the Facts, Ma'am // May 11, 2007 at 10:30 pm
Darthmeister (#77) Where is is written that: “… Mormonism is by definition a Christian cult”? I’ve never heard of any official statement to that effect by anyone in authority. BTW: Who would have the authority to make that statement? God, maybe? Or have you taken on that responsibility in His behalf.
I believe the fundamentalist Christian evangelical movement has the capability to do more damage to this country than the Islamo-fascists movement. A failure to live together, to continuously divide Americans into sects and cults and state that only YOU have the correct answer is anathema to the true American spirit.
I have already let Heirborne Ranger know of my feelings toward his posts and will end by stating that American has gone to hell ever since Madalyn Murray O’Hare came on the scene. Since then, God, in whatever form He is worshiped, has become the “whipping boy” for all sorts of fanatical activities. From the ACLU to the Christian “Right”, to the liberal atheists to the NEA…God is being used for personal agendas.
Where is the man who can unite us as Americans?
Pray.
93 its-just-me // May 11, 2007 at 10:31 pm
Loryienne, I appreciate your heart-felt and sincere feelings and thoughts.
Is it true that Mormons believe that they will (if they do everything properly in this life) become gods themselves?
If so, this is a fundamental difference between Mormons and Christians. Eve was deceived in this same way when the serpent told her that, if she ate of the forbidden fruit, she would become like God.
Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but this was also (according to the actual Bible) Lucifer’s undoing – to be envious of God and think he could take His place…
94 Just the Facts, Ma'am // May 11, 2007 at 10:36 pm
Thank you Loryienne for your wonderful testimony. You have just completed your mission…on the WWW. God Bless You!
95 MathMom // May 11, 2007 at 10:36 pm
JamesonLewis3rd
You are worried about “intolerance for those who adhere to the Word of Almighty God.” But God used some pretty sorry excuses for human beings for his greater glory, King David and Saul being the first two that pop into my mind. I hope he uses me, even though I fall far short in my actions and in my faith.
But if we get a whole bunch of doctrinal purists who encourage other purists to stay away from the polls if Romney is the candidate, you may wake up to a situation that is Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid cubed – Queen Hillary on the throne. That will equate to defeat in Iraq and the inevitable attacks within the US that will follow and be treated as police matters. Partial birth abortion is almost an article of faith with today’s Democrat party – that is certainly in opposition to the word of God. If you are truly worried about intolerance, you might do well to consider that we are all works in progress, and someone such as Romney might help steer our country back to more conservative, life-friendly policies, while a rejection of him with a Democrat win will almost certainly do the opposite.
96 Fred Sinclair // May 11, 2007 at 10:43 pm
blackhawk452 – the injunction in Revelation you cite is often misread by many. The Bible is not a book, The Bible is a library containing 66 books in a single binding, of which Revelation is but one and the injunction reads “…..this book….”
No one in his right mind would add or subtract from any of the 66 books and all cults have this in common; Science and Health with Keys to the Scripture by Mary Baker Eddy; Scientology and it’s Dianetics by that great Science Fiction Author, L. Ron Hubbard; Islam and it’s Koran; LDS and their Book of Mormon, etc., etc. they all have special additional information that they got straight from God.
I trained my German Shepard, Heidi, to be an attack dog but to her Stop! means ATTACK; Quit! means ATTACK HARDER; Come here! means GO; Go means COME.
In like manner some religions have done the same thing. What Jesus Christ means to Christians to others mreans Jesus the brother of Lucifer and using the same language they worship a different Christ. When Alma says “Unless I had been born again…” he didn’t mean what you and I mean with that phrase.
So I’ve already spent too much time on this so will hold a “live and let live” attitude toward those of a different belief. We will all answer someday – and if it’s all a giagantic scam we’re just nothing more than a piece of roadkill anyway – personally I ‘ve chosen to believe the Bible and nothing else. Even the Apostle Paul said that if he, himself came around with a different Gospel than what they had he would be accursed.
Heirborn Ranger
97 Fred Sinclair // May 11, 2007 at 10:48 pm
Don’t know how that “r” got into means, I think that is what they used to call a “typo”.
Heirborn Ranger
98 Fred Sinclair // May 11, 2007 at 10:55 pm
MathMom – Right again – if the Republicans stay away for ANY reason and give it to the Dems then we deserve what we get.
Heirborn Ranger
99 RedPepper // May 11, 2007 at 11:23 pm
Well. This has certainly been an interesting thread.
Stop me if you’ve heard this one …
“He drew a circle that shut me out
Heretic, rebel, a thing to flout.
But love and I had the wit to win;
We drew a circle that took him in.â€
– Edwin Markham
100 Fred Sinclair // May 12, 2007 at 12:02 am
Per Conan O’Brian – A protest rally in New York City to protest the jailing of Paris Hilton – a “Free Paris Rally”. Media coverage says eight people showed up. The media credits the warm weather for the high turnout.
Heirborn Ranger
101 PE // May 12, 2007 at 12:31 am
Hello Christians -
Why should we respect your religious identity when you don’t accord the same respect to those of other faiths?
102 Loryienne // May 12, 2007 at 2:30 am
To its-just-me,
Thank you for your nice comments. I want to try to answer your question. First of all, many scriptures in the King James Bible refer to us as children of god: Job 38:7 refers to the sons of God shouting for joy when the foundations of the Earth was laid. We believe that was all of the people that would live on Earth. Psalms 82:6 says “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.” And other scriptures express a similar idea. And if we are the offspring of God, why couldn’t we someday become like Him? Again, how long is Eternity?
What I know (believe) of Eternity right now can be summed up in about 3 sentences–that doesn’t even cover the first seconds of the first day let along its distant, far-off reaches.
On finding truth, I am always hit strongly with one description as Jesus enters Jerusalem for His last Passover on Earth. The people are wondering who He is, and they are debating among themselves. Some of them say something like Christ is predicted to be born in Bethlehem, and He is a Nazarene–therefore, we have proof He is not the Christ. I visualize good, searching people who know their scriptures stumbling here because they were missing one fact–Christ was indeed born in Bethlehem.
This tells me to be open and careful–and to not limit myself in my search for truth–and to search in multiple ways–not just in words. I hope it could also say to others to not separate us so far because of some beliefs that seem apparently wrong to them. I hope this makes sense.
I feel our prophet and leaders are much more concerned in grounding us in the here and now. We have good to accomplish today, and we cannot accomplish it alone. We know we need other good religions and good people if we are to protect the sanctity of life, strengthen the family, maintain our freedom of speech and our freedom of worship, and we need each other to overcome other physical and spiritual trials that are coming.
I just know that I stand in awe of Christian missionaries that serve for decades in Africa and Asia. I love the Pope when he stands for life and truth. I love my neighbors of other faiths who sincerely live their beliefs. I love people who are searching and all people who are working for good causes. And I hope I love all the rest of humanity also, and that I pray for my enemies enough. … And I love Scott because he is a good man, and wouldn’t criticize us if he understood us a little bit better.
And I don’t know which candidate I am voting for yet …
[CORRECTION: The statement above that "Scott...is a good man" lacks evidence, and is demonstrably false. An examination of the record would show that he was, in fact, born in sin, and that he actively embraced his sinful nature from the moment he was able, and then hourly from there on out. If not for the intervention of a merciful, loving God -- who removed the stain of Scott's sin, setting it on Jesus Christ at the cross, and replaced it with the gleaming of Christ's perfect righteousness -- Scott would have continued to wallow in sin until the day he faced judgment. Finding no remedy within himself, nor in the wisdom of this world, he would have received the just penalty for his hatred of, and disobedience toward, God; that being eternity in Hell. Nevertheless, through no merit of his own, Scott has received this great gift by the decree of the Father before the foundation of the world, by the regenerating action of the Spirit and on account of faith alone in what Christ actually accomplished in his death and resurrection. Even the faith it took to receive Christ as savior was a gift from God, leaving Scott with nothing to brag about. Far from being a good man, Scott openly admits he is the chief among sinners and that no one is good but God alone. Nevertheless, for purposes known only to himself, the one triune God has elected to lift Scott out of the mire, scrub him up with the detergent of Christ's blood, and place his feet upon the Rock...where no one can snatch him out of Christ's hand. No mere man, including Scott, could accomplish this work that Christ has done, because no mere man can forgive sins, no mere man can raise himself from the dead, no mere man is worthy of worship. Scott looks forward to joining the immense throng of the redeemed at the time when every knee (even those of the unrepentant condemned) shall bow and every tongue confess, not that Jesus Christ is "our savior" but that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Thus endeth the correction.]
103 JamesonLewis3rd // May 12, 2007 at 7:16 am
This thread has been distressing to put it mildly. It breaks my heart but does not surprise me and I can say no more other than that the Holy Spirit has impressed upon my heart once more to pray for those who choose not to see or hear the Truth.
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’~~Matthew 13:14-15
104 Darthmeister // May 12, 2007 at 7:30 am
I wonder when the Dhimmiecrats will get around to defunding America’s losing war against poverty? What a fifty year quagmire!
105 MargeinMI // May 12, 2007 at 7:56 am
I’m here to testify that my mother and I were both saved by Morman missionaries. Whilst traveling on a train outside of Seoul on our way to a tourist ‘village’, we struck up conversation with two young men (the only two other caucaisens on the train). After inquiring about our destinanation, they quickly informed us that we were on the wrong train! After instructing us to get off, travel back from where we came and giving us the correct train to get on, we were saved! Saved I tells ya, from more grueling hours on the train to/from hell(crowded and smelly, it was). Bless their hearts.
Just read Scott’s correction above. Guess we’re talking about a different kind of ’saving’ here. My bad.
Nevermind.
106 Darthmeister // May 12, 2007 at 8:00 am
To Just the Facts and other “offended” apologists for Mormonism.
Let’s set the record straight. There has never been a more villified Christian movement than that of Christian evangelicalism/fundamentalism, yet you don’t see us running around whining about being “offended” or “friends spitting in our eyes” blah, blah, blah. Grow up!
If we can’t have some kind of humor about serious issues then we’re no better than the moonbats on the radical left and the Dhimmiecrats have accomplished exactly what they have wanted, create divisions among a humorless people who take themselves far too seriously.
To condemn Scott for pointing out the unvarnished teachings of the LDS, and then some of those teachings get mocked, is hypocritical. I mean how many times have atheist fundamentalists and other anti-Christian bigots have held up the doctrine of the trinity, Christ’s virgin birth, or the miracles He performed to ridicule? I certainly see no respect there? And Jehovah Witnesses have mocked the concept of the trinity in no uncertain terms, Joseph and the Mormons have too with their polytheistic reinterpretation of the tri-unity of the godhead.
Who determines which is and which isn’t a cult? I’d say mainstream Christian thinkers down through the ages who have perfected a coda of understanding of the plain teachings of Scriptures do and I merely reflect a substantial part of two thousand years of Christian thought. Excuse me for thinking with a set of biblically grounded facts about the nature of God and the nature of man and making value judgments.
It’s easy enough to Google Christian cults and find a list that’s pretty fair-minded about comparing their peculiar dogmas and what is actually found in Scripture. And what is fascinating about this kerfuffle is Jews probably see Christianity as a cult, being that they totally reject the New Testament, but actually from a comparative point of view Christianity is more of a sect than a cult of Judaism. Okay, I can live with that even though two thousand years of Christian martyrs and the perfect life and character of our “giver of truth”, Messiah Jesus, have more than validated the authenticity of their claims down through the ages. In my world they are the gold standard by which all other cults, sects or systems of philosophy are to be compared … sorry for my narrowmindedness.
Last, what has been the most blatant example of hypocrisy, judgmentalism and real hate on this particular comment thread? Who has been the one who has rushed to the defense of Mormonism – none other than Just the Facts, Maam. Here’s what he/she/it posted:
I believe the fundamentalist Christian evangelical movement has the capability to do more damage to this country than the Islamo-fascists movement. A failure to live together, to continuously divide Americans into sects and cults and state that only YOU have the correct answer is anathema to the true American spirit.
You see, we’re being compared to Islamofascists! Where have we Scrapplers compared Mormons to Islamofascists? NOWHERE! Just substitute “atheist movement”, “Mormon movement”, “Catholic movement”, “Seventh Day Adventist movement”, “Jehovah Witness movement” for “fundamentalist Christian evangelical movement” and you will see what a hateful bigot and liar Just the Facts truly is. Such Orwellian hypocrisy is truly breathtaking and I CONDEMN IT as unAmerican.
Now if we want to talk about political ideologies that most closely parallel Islamofascism (which is what Islamofascism basically is), then let’s talk about radical leftism because those two are truly strange bedfellows.
107 MargeinMI // May 12, 2007 at 8:07 am
Shelly, Boy, that Fred Thompson really IS something! No flibbertygibbit or will-o-whisp is he! I’d even bet he can hold moonbeams in his hands!
108 Ms RightWing, Ink // May 12, 2007 at 8:30 am
Those two young boys are still knocking on my front door while two old ladies are beating in the side door with Watchtowers in their hands.
Gee, what do they want, I already gave money to the lads at the airport with saffron robes. sigh. Will the truth never end.
109 Darthmeister // May 12, 2007 at 8:32 am
BTW, the sheer number of hateful bigots arrayed against Christian evangelicals and fundamentalists proves what Just the Facts claims about us being most like Islamofascists is a complete lie.
Mainstream Protestant, Evangelical and Reform Christians have probably tolerated the greatest amount mockery, sheer hatred, and lies told about them than just about any religious movement except for Jews under Hitler, and yet we’ve never conducted a campaign of extermination against wacademics, militant atheists, and your garden variety Christian haters. Name one time in the last century when such abuse was being heaped upon mainstream Christians by haters where we saddled up, armed ourselves and began murdering “infidels” in the name of Yahweh, the Bible, and Jesus. And its not from the lack of arms or training that we haven’t done so, it’s a choice we’ve made not to murder those who threaten our faith in such an arrogant manner since we do not war against flesh and blood like the Islamofascists.
We’re nothing like Islamofascists because we’ve proven to be a patient and extremely tolerant people when Christian-hating mockers have spit in our faces for decades on end, how else to explain the sheer number of secular liberals who hate our very being? And when we resort to humor to show either the error, the utter hypocrisy or the double-standards of others who have attacked our Christian faith through their religious or political cults, WE’RE CONDEMNED AS HATERS!
Like Rodney Dangerfield always says, “Uhn, can’t get no respect!”
110 mig // May 12, 2007 at 8:52 am
FYI
Last Friday night, University of Maryland student Matthew Watson was killed by an illegal alien drunk driver — the latest tragic victim of the out-of-control illegal invasion.
Congressman Steve King has reported that 25 Americans every day are killed by an illegal alien. Every day! The media hardly takes notice.
Media can count the American loss overseas and relishes every ‘reported’ innocent civilian death there but likes the fuzzy math when it comes to illegals killing innocent civilians.
111 Maggie // May 12, 2007 at 9:17 am
Ms Righty,
The two at the front door work for the Romney campaign and want your vote.OR…..they are selling Krispy Cream doughnuts.
112 Ms RightWing, Ink // May 12, 2007 at 10:03 am
I’ll take the doughnuts, er creamsticks.
113 sarm // May 12, 2007 at 10:09 am
Mack re:#46
To be a worthy Mormon, a person must tithe…give 10% of his GROSS income to the Mormon church. Only a worthy Mormon can go to the temple for the special sacred ceremonies that make one eligible for eternal delights, including temple marriage. I have heard that the church can make it possible within Utah for this sum to be withheld from a person’s paycheck, which is a very nice convenience. He might never even feel the pain missing 10% of GROSS can make! How much of the population in Utah do you suppose gives 10% GROSS to the Mormon church?
Gee whiz, if my church were to tax the population of Texas through a similar manipulative tactic (if you don’t give, you can’t go to heaven) it could afford to pay medical bills of indigent and uninsured church members, too! That and a lot of other things…
It somehow reminds me of the RC church of the middle ages. It also reminds me of Cuba! “Free” medical care and education for all!
I wonder what is the net worth of the Mormon church.
It’s fine with me if Mitt runs; that is his right. I do have to wonder if he had to choose between the LDS church and the nation, which he would choose. Whenever a church is also a political entity (as an example, the Vatican is a state) this will be a problem. The issue with JFK was not a dislike of his faith, as I understand it. The issue was political loyalty– The USA or the Vatican? What is a good Catholic to do in a quandary?
The state of Utah is for all intents and purposes a theocratic state in secular clothes. So far, it is “acting” secular most of the time, from what I can tell, although I would never choose to live there. The problem with a Mormon in the White House is the that of ultimate loyalty if the issue should ever arise. What is a worthy Mormon to do in a quandary? Would the LDS apostles be able to rule the USA through a Mormon president? Who really knows?
Scott’s line about “kooky” beliefs did not offend me. I think LDS beliefs are kooky: The men on the moon are dressed like Quakers. The American Indians are the lost tribes of Israel. Negros (their word, not mine) have black skin as punishment because of bad behavior in a previous life, which made them ineligible for priesthood in the church, until the 1970s when this suddenly changed. When the leaders tell you to do something, the thinking has already been done. These ideas and statements came from the mouths of presidents or apostles or other high leaders. There is a very long list of kooky beliefs. Does Mitt Romney really believe this stuff? If so, I think he is also a little bit nutty, and should not be president. Does he believe that the church leaders were wrong, and therefore fallible? Are we allowed to ask him? This is, to me, an important question.
May Fred or Newt save us.
114 Laughing@You // May 12, 2007 at 10:12 am
Like Rodney Dangerfield always says, “Uhn, can’t get no respect!â€
Oh, the injustice of it all! How do you bear it?
115 JamesonLewis3rd // May 12, 2007 at 10:18 am
I’ll have an éclair, please–cream filled.
Make that 12.
116 JamesonLewis3rd // May 12, 2007 at 10:19 am
117 Loryienne // May 12, 2007 at 10:19 am
Well, I didn’t mean to offend you–so sorry. Can I in any way appreciate that you articulate much that I believe is true without calling you “good”?
I agree that Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father and the Holy Ghost are the only perfection and that I totally need them. I, too, need to repent every minute.
Battles of words have never worked for me. I leave just wanting to share what I’ve experienced and felt as a Mormon.
My quest to love not just within, but also beyond my own group continues.
118 JamesonLewis3rd // May 12, 2007 at 10:19 am
Hm, not getting through.
119 JamesonLewis3rd // May 12, 2007 at 10:21 am
Ah, I see, dueling posts.
120 its-just-me // May 12, 2007 at 11:30 am
Loryienne – if you’re here this morning -
If you’ll read the entirety of Psalm 82 (sorry, didn’t have time to re-read the whole book of Job), you’ll see that this is directed at judges or other rulers (note “He judges in the midst of the rulers. How long will you judge unjustly?” verses 1-2).
So, later in the psalm, the speaker (not God here, because it says “I said”) tells these leaders that they are gods (little g), implying their power and responsibility.
This is a metaphor, similar to the numerous times in Psalms referring to taking shelter under the wings of God. Does this mean God is some type of bird? No.
But give it a few years – I’m sure someone will probably receive some new word from God that this is so.
P.S. – I’ll have a raspberry-jelly-filled, please.
121 Laughing@You // May 12, 2007 at 11:34 am
There are three American Soldiers missing after an attack near Baghdad. Could the Mormons please join the Baptists, and whatever, in calling out to God for their safe and quick return.
122 its-just-me // May 12, 2007 at 11:49 am
O.K., L@Y -
Already do that (almost) daily.
Thank you for the reminder, though.
123 Darthmeister // May 12, 2007 at 11:55 am
Can’t wait until the “non-judgmental” liberal secular trolls start blaming modern Christian evangelicals for the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition. It’s always their MO. But of course that’s like the pot calling the kettle black since history is quite clear that if anyone’s ideology is most like murderous Islamfascism its those ideological movements based on radical secular socialism – from the national socialist Nazis to the Sov-coms. But of course the liberal socialists in America always delude themselves into thinking they are benign “humanitarians” who can make a large-scale collectivist government work without resorting to re-education camps and pogroms to convert the masses to their way of thinking through government force and not honest debate.
We already see the latent bigotry within people like Just the Facts whose own ignorant hatred compares Christian evangelicals/fundamentalists to Islamofascists. These “non-judgmental” worldly humanist demagogues are the true experts in falsely demonizing people who have tried to live in peace with those who have villified and mocked the Christian faith for decades on end. Then they insult our intelligence with their lies about how “open-minded”, “compassionate” and “peaceful” they are when with their own lips they demonstrate the murderous rage they have for mainstream Christians who stand in the way of their earthly humanist utopia.
124 JamesonLewis3rd // May 12, 2007 at 11:58 am
Somehow this seems apropos this morning.
125 Laughing@You // May 12, 2007 at 12:14 pm
Poor Henry,
And still you wonder why get “get no respect”.
126 Laughing@You // May 12, 2007 at 12:14 pm
you
127 JamesonLewis3rd // May 12, 2007 at 12:16 pm
Apparently Caucasians and Negroes are not equal in CA.
128 Ms RightWing, Ink // May 12, 2007 at 12:35 pm
Alright, since I am a pastry chef I reckon I can divvy up an assorted pile of high calorie pastry.
No coffee though. I don’t want to send my, ahem, Utah friends into a, oh forget it, I have to go get those young boys off my lawn. Their bicycles are leaving tracks–just like that old woman who was telling me about the 144,000
129 RedPepper // May 12, 2007 at 2:10 pm
Ms RW: About those young men … are they dressed in suits, or do they have on parkas, orange knit sailor’s caps and metal buttons that say “Clean for
GeneDean” ?If it’s the latter, you might want to consider bolting your door …
130 conserve-a-tips // May 12, 2007 at 2:14 pm
Lorianne, if you are on here this afternoon, I am curious. Do Mormons understand that The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are all one and the same? Do you all honor them as the three aspects of God just like we have three aspects? (although we are subjected to time and space and God is not)
Also, do Mormons believe that all people are exactly equal in God’s eyes and that none of us can ever be good enough to please God? I really am asking out of interest. I have several friends who are Mormon and I recognize that if they do not understand their faith, then that is not a reflection on the faith.
131 conserve-a-tips // May 12, 2007 at 2:17 pm
Oh, and I am on a low cholesterol diet, so please cease and desist with the Krispy Kreme references as they are my favorites and I may never get to have one again on this earth. Perhaps in Heaven, but not in the here and now and it’s all about me, you know…. If I had my way, though, I would be requesting the Apple Cinnamon – no – no – stop it!!!!!!
132 RedPepper // May 12, 2007 at 2:32 pm
Get thee behind me, Pastries ! Tempt me not !
133 lgeis // May 12, 2007 at 2:36 pm
You know, I think Scott was being very gentle. From a strict 1Thess5:21 and Jude3 posture, he could have brought up failed prophecies (like the Toronto sale of the BOM copyrights, House of Nauvoo forever, et. al.), ex cathedra statements about men on the moon and sun (Brigham Young), ex cathedra statements that led to the Reed Smoot case, and the entire Book of Abraham issue. Those things will light a fire under any sagging conversation.
No doubt, I love my Mormon friends, but I’m very concerned about the theology the LDS church is supressing/amending…about 4,200 substantial changes from the 1830 BOM that are indisputable…and powerful indictments.
Scott did well mixing humor and a serious concern I’m certain he shares for Mormon souls.
134 RedPepper // May 12, 2007 at 2:55 pm
Anonymous(?): I certainly don’t mean to criticise Scott for his choice of topic; he certainly got the pixels dancing, if nothing else!
OTOH, I have no expectation that Mitt Romney is going to lead me to Heaven, or that I will lead him there, either. Whether he can do something for me here on this green earth – now that, I’m interested in!
135 conserve-a-tips // May 12, 2007 at 3:06 pm
Excellent, excellent post Anonymous #132:
I would like to add that the Republican party is supposed to be that of Conservatives. We recognize that Conservative does not mean Christian, but is a set of values that includes family, faith, freedom, finances and Federalism. How’s that for the 5 F’s? Anyway, inasmuch, we know that in the Conservative movement and mindset, there are more than Christians and honor that. As I said, we need to be praying for whom it is we are to vote and literally turn this nation’s future over to God’s hands.
I have friends in many different faiths, including Shintoism and Hinduism as well as Mormon and Jehovah’s Witness and though I love them dearly, know that their understanding of the Truth is off the mark. God gave us a very simple plan, and though man has taken that simplicity and tried, time after time, to fill it full of more stuff, God wants us to recognize His simple plan and accept it only. All of the other faiths, no matter what they are, make it too hard. I think that is why Biblical Christianity is so hard to accept. Man thinks that somehow he must be in control in some small or big way, of his own destiny, by doing things. God says, “No, I AM” and man sighs, just like the rich, young ruler and walks away, to go and keep on doing things.
Christ says that not everyone who calls Him “Lord, Lord” will enter the kingdom of Heaven. He says that they will cry, “But didn’t we DO this in your name and didn’t we DO that in your name?” And He will say, “I never knew you. Go away, you evil doers.” People who do “good” things think that they are not evil, not understanding that to the perfect God, all of us are evil because none of us are perfect. Unless we accept Christ for who He is, and realize the miracle of His sacrifice, then we remain that way – imperfect, no matter how good we are. It’s kind of like a math problem…it doesn’t matter how close you come to the answer of 2+2, if it isn’t exactly 4, then it is the wrong answer and you miss the question.
136 Darthmeister // May 12, 2007 at 3:37 pm
More hypocrisy from liberal Dhimmiecrats: Obama Talks Hybrids But His Ride Has A Hemi.
It seems Mr. Obama loves the roominess and comfort of his Chrysler 300C. Nothing wrong with that, it’s a fine car and the 340 HP Hemi is a great engine, but if someone is going to get on their soapbox about global warming and being green and tell the masses who we are suppose to make then sacrifices, then they are surely hypocrites for not taking their own advice and driving hybrids themselves … FOR THE PLANET AND THE CHILDREN! Of course, what do you expect for Leerjet and limousine liberals who are always sanctimoniously telling the hard-working hoi polloi how to live their lives.
First it was forced bussing, then it was race-based affirmative action, followed by the PC thought police, and now this arrogant obamanation. Doesn’t it always seem it’s the liberal seculars who are always using government and the activist courts to try and force the rest of us to live according to their bankrupt ideology? And they have the gall to accuse us of forcing “our fundamentalist religion” down their throats when it is they forcing their religion of liberalism down our throats by government decree?
137 Ms RightWing, Ink // May 12, 2007 at 4:35 pm
Hmm, just where did I lay that golden tablet. And what about the slaughter of the innocent settlers as JS told the Indians they were his half brothers so go kill the white folk
And of course, need we not say, there are the Mormons and the reformed Mormons. So which one of them are going to heaven and become gods?
And if that bothers you enough don’t use Diamond Crystal sugar and be careful what motel chain you sleep in or you may find the Gideons has been replaced with The Book (bu ha ha ha)
138 ericbrin // May 12, 2007 at 5:13 pm
test
139 ericbrin // May 12, 2007 at 5:17 pm
I am a Mormon and am used to a lot of criticism, as I am sure many of you Christians are. Much of it is based on ignorance. Much of it is based on true disagreement.
First off, in response to people’s comments, the term “Christian” is just a label. Whether you consider a Mormon a “Christian” or not simply depends on which definition of the word “Christian” you choose. As this article describes, the word Christian can be defined in two major ways: broadly or narrowly. Mormons fit the “broad” definition. However, the beliefs of Mormons are contrary to the “narrow” definition.
I understand that the whole purpose of Scott’s blog is to poke fun–whether it is at Mormons or Hillary Clinton. As a Mormon, I am used to being made fun of and I don’t let it bother me. I only take issue with the few parts of this satire that are inaccurate. First off, I don’t expect Scott to know everything about Mormonism and therefore don’t find fault with him. I just want to clear up some misinformation propagated in this blog about the Mormons. I will try to include references as much as possible.
If you want a synopsis of Mormon beliefs straight from the horses mouth, click here. These beliefs are called collectively as “The Articles of Faith.†These were written by Joseph Smith in response to a journalist who once asked him exactly what Mormons believed.
I just wanted to correct the mistakes in Scott’s first, second-to-last, and last points. The rest of his points are correct:
Scott’s first statement regarding Mormon beliefs: “God is not eternal, but was once a man on another planet†is partially incorrect. We believe that God is eternal. Read the first seven words of the first Article of Faith. Regarding God being a man at some point: The Mormon prophet Lorenzo Snow said the following, “As man now is, God once was:†“As God now is, man may be.†If you want to read about the context of this, click here and scroll roughly half-way down the page. The idea that God lived on another planet isn’t doctrine, but seems to be a logical conclusion (he had to have lived somewhere) if you believe that he was a man at one point.
Scott’s second-to-last statement said, “there is no salvation outside of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.†This is incorrect. If you want to see why, click here and scroll down to the heading “Mormon Temples and Work for the Dead.†This is the whole reason why the Church is so involved in genealogy. It would be ridiculous to assume that the only people who could be “saved†are those who lived after 1830, when the church was organized. Do we believe that Noah and Moses are denied salvation because they weren’t members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? That’s ridiculous.
Scott’s last statement says we believe “it is impossible to be saved by God’s grace alone.†That statement is completely false. Of course we cannot save ourselves. We cannot “earn†our way to heaven. We are saved by grace, not by our own works (Eph. 2:8). Grace is a free gift for all mankind. However, we must choose to accept the gift by being “doers of the word, and not hearers only†(James 1:22). It is by doing our part of the two-way covenant–striving to obey the Lord’s teachings–that we gain access to that grace. Here is a verse from the Book of Mormon that says the exact opposite of what Scott is claiming: “Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved†(2 Nephi 10:24).
140 ericbrin // May 12, 2007 at 5:21 pm
I’m surprised at the lack of tolerance from other Christians for the Mormon church. I have nothing but respect for all of you who worship in the way that you have chosen, even though I personally don’t believe it is 100% correct.
Here is what Gordon B. Hinckley, the current Mormon prophet, had to say concerning other religions: “I say this to other people: you develop all the good you can. We have no animosity toward any other church. We do not oppose other churches. We never speak negatively of other churches. We say to people: you bring all the good that you have, and let us see if we can add to it.” (link)
141 ericbrin // May 12, 2007 at 5:23 pm
The last thing I wanted to address is this utter nonsense from the guy with user name Fred Sinclair. He states:
“c. Wives married in the Temple with veil. must be buried wearing the veil. On resurrection day the men will be resurrected first. If he deems his wife to have been a “worthy†wife he will go to her grave, remove the veil and only then will she be resurrected. (unfaithfulness, arguing, discontent and/or rebellion will automatically render her “unworthyâ€.) This is their heavy hammer used to keep wives “in line†and subject to total obedience to their husbands. This is in a higher level of teaching and the average Morman does not know about it. If you get into the fifth and sixth level of education – only then will you get to learn these things.â€
The only truth here is that women do wear a veil in the temple and can be buried wearing a veil. The rest of what he wrote is nonsense. Fred, I don’t know where you got these ideas from, but I’d be interested in finding out. You can email me at brinton at mac.com if you want.
142 JamesonLewis3rd // May 12, 2007 at 6:06 pm
How utterly sad.
143 Ms RightWing, Ink // May 12, 2007 at 6:20 pm
ericbrin
If you have your fingers in your ears you can only hear what you are saying. We don’t believe in saving dead people, nor is Scott’s half wrong theology half right.
You guys started with a snake oil salesman and things haven’t changed much since. Why did the townsfolks chase you out of everyplace you settled in the 1899’s.
Christ is the river of life and you guys settled next to a dead lake.
Why is Mormon money keeping Las Vegas alive, but you can not work in a casino?
Sorry
144 conserve-a-tips // May 12, 2007 at 6:53 pm
Ericbrin: That was a very well-written piece, but I find a glaring inconsistency which I think you have missed seeing.
The complaint was: Scott’s last statement says we believe “it is impossible to be saved by God’s grace alone.â€
And you responded: That statement is completely false. Of course we cannot save ourselves. We cannot “earn†our way to heaven. We are saved by grace, not by our own works (Eph. 2:8). Grace is a free gift for all mankind. However, we must choose to accept the gift by being “doers of the word, and not hearers only†(James 1:22). It is by doing our part of the two-way covenant–striving to obey the Lord’s teachings–that we gain access to that grace.
Have you caught the inconsistency yet? Grace is a free gift from God. Have you ever received any other free gift? Maybe from your parents at Christmas even if you’d been a toot a couple of weeks before? Did you have to be a “doer” and do your part of your chores in order to get your gift? Or were you given that gift in spite of how you had behaved? You see, a gift isn’t free if you have to have any part in getting it. There is no “gain[ing] access to that grace.” God already had done the gift in presenting himself in the form of His Son Jesus and offering Himself up as a sacrifice. The only thing you have to DO is accept it. Once you accept it THEN you become “doers of the word, not hearers only” because you are so grateful for the gift of salvation that you want to do what pleases God. That is what I meant by people who try to make God’s plan too difficult.
You are adding something to the Cross of Christ ( you say doing your part of the covenant). You see, when someone makes a covenant with you, it is signed, sealed and delivered before ever you do anything to keep the covenant, and you keep it because you want to honor the other person involved. God made the covenant with Jesus Christ and all He asks you to do is to accept it. Your god has strings attached. My God loved me and made a covenant with me unconditionally.
145 conserve-a-tips // May 12, 2007 at 6:55 pm
Sorry, I meant: God made the covenant through Jesus Christ.
146 myword // May 12, 2007 at 7:00 pm
Loryienne #89
Thank you for your post and the insights you imparted. I would be blessed to have you as a neighbor and a friend.
Santini #74
I believe you are spot on in your evaluation of the candidates at this time. I personally feel Mitt Romney has character, is principled, and as Joe Biden would say is “erudite”. He’s a fairly new face to much of the country but I was impressed with his handling of the Olympics after 9/11 and the job he has done as Governor. Equally important IMO he is electable. The Democrat slime machine headed by George Soros will do their best to split the Republican Party over the religion issue. If that happens, Republicans would rue the day. Eight years of socialism would be a catastrophe. We are still paying the price for the last 8 year stint of Dem rule. They loaded all the district courts and would do even more damage this time with Supreme Court judges.
It is too early to become too invested in any one candidate as a few will have their “macaca” moments before this is over. The Dems with their deep pockets have undoubtably kept private detectives working overtime to dig up any dirt they can find on Republicans. They are masters at that and show no mercy. What they don’t find legitimately, they are more than willing to manufacture.
They sat on the Mark Foley scandal for a year, then released it just before the election.
The Dems can have scandals without reprisal as the MSM won’t follow up on them. Besides it is accepted they are sleazy. As conservatives strive for a higher standard, they become an easy target when there is a personal failing. The MSM gleefully plays a roll in this.
My point is, we don’t need to be eating our own. The Dems are more than happy to see this. This country was founded on freedom of religion. If it doesn’t interfere with the candidate’s performance , indeed may enhance it, it should not be a litmus test.
If you have any doubt to the long lasting damage a Dem victory could have, read this !
As C-A-T says – best pray. The right leader for this time will be provided.
147 Laughing@You // May 12, 2007 at 7:08 pm
Luke 9:
49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
148 conserve-a-tips // May 12, 2007 at 7:44 pm
Myword, Amen…the clincher is, are we going to be able to accept who that person may be? It may be that our country has gotten so far away for the Lord, that we will have to suffer a painful leader in order for us to hurt bad enough and turn back to Him. I can’t believe that under a Republican president, faith in God has become even more oppressed thanks to the likes of the ACLU and even the SCOTUS. These are troubling times, but Christ tells us not to worry and so we can be calm no matter what comes.
149 Ms RightWing, Ink // May 12, 2007 at 7:58 pm
c.a.t. said
“You are adding something to the Cross of Christ ( you say doing your part of the covenant).”
Sorry, they don’t believe in the cross either. Look at any temple. No cross anywhere, inside or out.
Popular books refuting Mormonism and Joseph Smith’s claims
By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus: A New Look at the Joseph Smith Papyri by Charles M. Larson
Farewell to Eden: Coming to terms with Mormonism and Science by Duwayne R. Anderson (former Mormon )
Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church
by Simon G. Southerton
All these can be purchased through Amazon.com and/or there commentary could be read there also.
I will let these authors speak for themselves as there research is much deeper than my books that I have read over the years
150 Just the Facts, Ma'am // May 12, 2007 at 7:59 pm
Well, I see I’ve been called a bigot and a liar. In my own Christian way, I forgive you. I’ve read all the posts here and can only conclude we are a nation of divided religions who apparently are unable to live together as we once did. It is a shame. It portends the end of the earth. Only then will we really know if that “snake oil salesman” was right or not. Mormons live by faith. It appears here that ultra-right wing religious fanatics live only to tear down everyone else’s religion.
God Bless America. I’ve served my time in Vietnam to give everyone the right to worship as they see fit, and to speak their mind as they see fit.
I am not a liar, nor am I a bigot. And Mrs Inc., I’ll meet you in Vegas anytime for a wonderful vacation. My treat.
151 Ms RightWing, Ink // May 12, 2007 at 8:05 pm
er, their research (I’m so tared I cint read )
152 conserve-a-tips // May 12, 2007 at 8:30 pm
Just the facts ~ Sorry, but when did everybody ever all get along in this country??? Just look at the history of your own religion and pick up a book on the Civil War.
153 ericbrin // May 12, 2007 at 8:41 pm
You are right, my statement does seem inconsistent. It has to do with our belief that the Atonement of Christ is two-fold in nature. I didn’t want to get into extensive Mormon doctrine, which would have explained the seemed inconsistency. If you are interested in what I mean, this article will explain it a lot better than I can.
154 JamesonLewis3rd // May 12, 2007 at 8:45 pm
Sorry, but my rights are God-given and not dependent on a Christophobic, paranoid, self-proclaimed victim.
155 Darthmeister // May 12, 2007 at 9:04 pm
Nice job of oversimplifying and cherrypicking verses, L@Y. You rarely disappoint in this regard.
Matthew 7:22 – Many will say to me on that day, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform miracles?” Then I will tell them plainly, “I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers.”
Merely invoking the name of Jesus is not the same as accomplishing a work of God in the power and authority of the authentic Christ, which is what Luke 9 addresses. Apparently the man who was casting out demons “in Jesus’ name” was the real deal. It was not intended to be understood that everyone mouthing Jesus name were bona fide followers … even the demons said His name and trembled at the judgment awaiting them.
But Scripture is far more spiritually nuanced than you apparently understand because in Matthew 12:30 Jesus also said this to his disciples, “He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.” So the issue isn’t doing “good works” in the name of Jesus but rather being found in/with Jesus.
And just who is the authentic Jeshua? He is the Jewish Messiah, the son of the living God, born of a virgin, God incarnate, the second person of the Holy Triunity, from everlasting to everlasting in whom all Deity dwells in bodily form (Colossians 2:9), the only begotten of the Father (so Lucifer wasn’t his brother), the only Savior of mankind who Himself lived a perfectly sinless life thereby validating His right to be the unblemished Lamb of God slain on the Cross for the sins of humanity, physically raised Himself from the dead in unity with God the Father and the Holy Spirit. He’s the rightful heir and God of this world, the Lord of Lords, the King of Kings, and the only Ruler of the Universe and every star and planet in it, a Name unto which every knee shall bow and every tongue confess to the glory of God. He is the Word of God Who was with God in the beginning and through His name all things were made and without Him nothing was made that has been made (John 1:1-3). Any other “Jesus” that is worshipped is a fraud.
This is what the Bible means by “in the name of Jesus.” Merely invoking the name without the reverential awe for and personal experience with the unique majesty of Jeshua Messiah is merely an exercise in pushing air past ones vocal cords.
156 RedPepper // May 12, 2007 at 9:13 pm
Hmmm.
IMHO as an ultra-right wing political fanatic, I have always felt that one’s personal religious beliefs were one’s own business ; though, just for the sake of discussion, let me say that I am neither a Catholic (though I was raised as one) nor a Mormon (though I was once invited to become one), nor am I a fundamentalist evangelical Christian, even though I hang out here at Scrappleface quite a lot. I tend mostly to react to people based on how they treat me, and I mostly treat them accordingly. I suspect I’m not atypical in that regard.
Given that, I’m especially sorry that this thread has become so negative. One of the first religious questions I had in my life was, simply, “How can people KNOW which religion is the right one?” Fifty or so years later, I still cannot say that I could answer that question with confidence …
157 Darthmeister // May 12, 2007 at 9:22 pm
Just the Facts, need I remind you? I believe the fundamentalist Christian evangelical movement has the capability to do more damage to this country than the Islamo-fascists movement.
I’ve already made myself plain about your judgmental bigotry which has absolutely no basis in history or facts – and I make no apology in calling you on the carpet. Just substitute “Mormon” for “fundamentalist Christian evangelical” and you would have to condemn yourself given your own previous “open-minded” defense of Mormonism! You’re so blind to your own hatreds and judgmentalism of “fundamentalist Christian evangelicals” that you blithely ignore you double-mindedness.
No Scrappler here has ever equated Roman Catholics, Protestants, Calvinists, Jews, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Scientologists, Seventh Day Adventists, Buddhists, Hindus, Rosicrucians, Children of God, etc. with Islamofascists. Yet you succeeded in comparing “fundamentalist Christian evangelicals” to Islamofascists your first day here! It’s you who is a narrow-minded ignorant bigot. Take a good hard look in a mirror and quit being so magnanimously self-righteous.
158 JamesonLewis3rd // May 12, 2007 at 9:26 pm
That’s just it, it’s not about “religion”.
159 lgeis // May 12, 2007 at 9:50 pm
ericbrin, Anon #132 here. I think it’s critical to not test Mormonism by whether or not it has certain elements of Christianity, well-reasoned and parsed contemporary doctrine, or exquisitely crafted, clever rebuttals to the variety of PR challenges that have surfaced in the past century. It’s not a matter of intellect…Dallin Oaks is nearly unassailable in matters of intellect.
Rather, there are some very fundamental tests that are appropriate when determining divine authority, and interestingly enough, common to both classic/Biblical Christianity and Mormonism.
If a “prophet” produces false prophecy, he is a false prophet. It matters not that the LDS Church has great architecture, preaches family values, or runs tear-jerker commercials (not being perjorative here…). Joseph Smith, the foundation of Mormonism (including the current LDS organization), was a demonstrably false prophet. It’s interesting too…when was the last time the LDS Church’s “Prophet, Seer, and Revelator” produced a prophecy? Why wasn’t the Seer used on the Book of Abraham discovery? It’s in his job description. There are far too many incongruities that should be addressed before we start trying equate the LDS faith to Christianity, which has a thousands-of-years old document that has withstood all challenges to infallibility…and I do love to defend that point!
This is a very convoluted point…I apologize for that.
160 Ms RightWing, Ink // May 12, 2007 at 9:53 pm
Paul spoke at the Areopagus in Athens, Acts 17:22-31. Many of the listeners were skeptics
22 Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; 23 for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription:
TO THE UNKNOWN GOD.
Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood[a] every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.â€
RedPepper:
Over the many years I have posted here we have had many heated discussions. This is not the first, nor will it be the last.
I have seen very little negativity on this thread. If people did not defend the faith then we would all be like spiritual jellyfish. We defend faith, true Christianity, American values, the right to bear arms, free speech and many other points here.
We have even argued over which cars are better, Fords or Chevies.
How can people decide which religions are true? Well, if it wasn’t for Paul’s stand at the Areopagus, nobody back then would have had an idea. Though I usual don’t post this many times, I feel it is important to say that cults do exist in the midsts of Christianity.
Are Mormons bad people, certainly not. Is their belief system faulty, yes. Can we have the backbone to say so, God help us if we can’t.
Just the facts:
We as an early nation really never tolerated new religions. Catholics were banned in the original 13 colonies and Mormons were ran out of Kirkland, Ohio and Illinois way back in the 1800’s and they never stopped running until they got to Salt Lake City.
Now both have found safe havens all around America, as have the Islamics.
161 JamesonLewis3rd // May 12, 2007 at 10:00 pm
Dodge.
162 Just the Facts, Ma'am // May 12, 2007 at 10:09 pm
Red pepper, I totally agree with you. How do we know? We can only live the good life as our mothers/fathers and religious leaders teach us to live, and then find out after it’s all over what the truth really is.
The way some people nit-pick and cherry pick other’s comments in this tread is typical but deplorable.
Some claim to know it all, to have studied it all, and then want to tell the rest of us we are wrong if we don’t believe them. I don’t know if the Mormon way is right. I know that all the Mormon’s I have know and dealt with are a whole lot more accommodating and understanding than some of the posters I have come in contact with here.
Conserv-a-tips and JL3rd pick out a small part of my post and try to make a big deal out of, thereby implying that my major tenet is completely wrong. OK, maybe we haven’t always gotten along well…that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t strive for that end. And if your rights are God given, you can thank every soldier that fought to defend this Country and the constitution that you still have those rights. It may come sooner than you think that those who believe Allah gave them their rights will be knocking at your door demanding you join Islam, pay a duty or die!
That’s why I think the fundamentalists need to stop harping against all other “Christian” religions and find a way to work together to conquer the common enemy. The fundamentalist discussions over so many moot points are meaningless in the big picture.
163 JamesonLewis3rd // May 12, 2007 at 10:19 pm
I haven’t made a “big deal out of” anything, but thanks for underscoring my point.
164 conserve-a-tips // May 12, 2007 at 10:19 pm
Kudos, MsRightwing,Ink # 159
165 RedPepper // May 12, 2007 at 10:20 pm
Ms RW: I have no problem with people testifying to their own faith.
It’s not clear to me that you can argue some into a system of beliefs.
Or out of one.
Though I have certainly tried, at times …
166 Just the Facts, Ma'am // May 12, 2007 at 10:33 pm
Darthmeister, let me make one thing clear. I believe the extreme leftist liberals, the Daily Kos, the KKKlintons and that ilk, have more of a chance to do permanent damage to this country than the evangelical movement every could. I stated that they had the “capability” should the negativism toward other religions and religious beliefs become a basic attribute of their daily operation. You, in what appeared to be a hysterical reaction, failed to note that word — capability.
I would be the first to never deny a person the right to worship God in the manner they chose…but I don’t want them telling me that my way is wrong…my way is not Christian, my way will doom me and I have to join them to be saved. I didn’t join my religion because of fear of death, I joined it because of the joy of living a blessed life.
The Islamic fascists will doom us all if we don’t join together as ‘CHRISTIANS’
167 ericbrin // May 12, 2007 at 10:51 pm
Wow! I guess I had some serious misconceptions about fundamentalist evangelical Christians (or whatever they’re called). I am beginning to believe Just the Facts’ comment made earlier: “the fundamentalist Christian evangelical movement has the capability to do more damage to this country than the Islamo-fascists movement.” This morning, I thought that statement was ridiculous. I find it ironic that while I have many liberal/atheist friends who are respectful of my religion (LDS), I don’t find that respect here in this “Christian” atmosphere. Then again, the bigotry is coming from just a few of you.
168 12345 // May 12, 2007 at 10:54 pm
If you believe any of the following, you are a religious kook:
Riding a winged horse to Heaven;
Virgin birth;
Resurrection;
A three-day rotting corpse coming alive again;
All sins being atoned for by one person;
Multi-armed, blue-skinned goddesses;
Bread and wine turning to flesh and blood in one’s mouth.
None of the forgoing can be proven to have occurred. The point is, Scott, religions are kooky as seen from another’s perspective: and, if you cannot see that, then congratulations, you are a religious BIGOT.
169 conserve-a-tips // May 12, 2007 at 10:56 pm
Ericbrin, I read your article and I am more convinced then ever that your belief shows total inconsistency.
First of all, look up the word Grace in the Greek. You will find:
grace
a.that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech
b.good will, loving-kindness, favour
of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues
c. what is due to grace
the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine grace
d. the token or proof of grace, benefit
e. a gift of grace
f. benefit, bounty
g. thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward
The article said: “The gift of resurrection is given unconditionally to all, whether they accept and obey the gospel or not. Both the wicked and the righteous shall rise from the grave, meaning that the spirit and the body shall once again be reunited in an immortal state. On the other hand, spiritual death, which is the separation of man from God, is overpowered by the Atonement on condition that we comply with requirements the Lord has set. These include having faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repenting, being baptized by authorized servants of the Lord, and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, which we will use with a determination to serve Him all the days of our lives. These conditions were well understood and were taught by Paul
Note the scripture that you quoted from Ephesians: “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast.
How can the gift of resurrection, given unconditionally, be saving if the gospel is not accepted? Both the wicked and the righteous shall rise from the grave. OK. So how has God’s grace saved the unrighteous through faith if they don’t have faith? And who in their right mind would consider resurrection to an eternity in Hell, a gift of grace? The scripture says, “For it is by grace you have been SAVED, through faith…” and so we are talking about a saving grace that requires nothing. I’ll say it again, God made a covenant through Christ Jesus and offers it to us. A covenant is accepted or rejected before anything regarding that covenant goes into effect.
It appears to me that your religion assumes that man has control over things that are really God’s. If we are arrogant enough to think that we can do anything to make or cause God to give us the gift of salvation, then we are guilty of denying His absolute and awesome power. You have it backwards…God asks us to accept the gift and then once we have accepted, then to show the fruits of that gift in our lives as a result. There is an old saying, “If for one moment you think that you have control over anything other then your decisions and attitudes, take a big boulder, hold it over your foot, drop it and then will it to stop.”
170 conserve-a-tips // May 12, 2007 at 11:01 pm
Just the Facts ~ You say that you don’t want anyone telling you that your way is wrong. When your young men go on their missionary journeys and when you are taught to spead the gospel according to your religion, those are examples of telling other people that their way is wrong. You believe that your way is right and you want others to believe it as well. If you are not willing to do that, then you aren’t very serious about your faith.
171 12345 // May 12, 2007 at 11:08 pm
By the way Mormons, just in case you haven’t grasped the concept yet, most evangelical “Christians” like Scott:
(1) believe you to be bizarre cultists;
(2) have no respect whatsoever for your religious beliefs; and
(3) think you are either stupid (for being Mormons) or dishonest (because you know better but still follow Mormon beliefs).
They have no problem courting your vote and talking “common values” when it comes to supporting their candidate, but now that you have one in Romney, expect more ad hominem attacks like this beauty from Scott. Get used to it Mormons: evangelical “Christians” like Scott despise you.
172 12345 // May 12, 2007 at 11:14 pm
Mormons, you might want to reconsider any support you lend to BIGOTS like Scott by ceasing to patronize this site.
In addition, if you frequent Free Republic, you might notice that they supposedly do not tolerate religious bigotry, but they sure allow gratuitous attacks on your beliefs. Evangelical Christians are USING you.
173 JamesonLewis3rd // May 12, 2007 at 11:15 pm
They’re coming out of the woodwork on this one.
174 Laughing@You // May 12, 2007 at 11:23 pm
Sure sounds like Shiites and Sunnis to me.
I’m just sure the Good Lord didn’t mean for you all to act as you do.
Can’t we all just follow whatever path the Darkmeister leads?
175 Just the Facts, Ma'am // May 12, 2007 at 11:41 pm
conserve-a-tips: I wasn’t brought into my religion by a missionary. I have never told anyone their religion is ‘WRONG’. I’ve always felt that anyone who lives a Christian life is a worthy person. It would not be up to me, or in my opinion, a missionary to tell someone their religion was wrong. To try and let them know about the tenets of that religion and then let them make up their own mind is the way a good missionary should teach.
There has been way too much “you’re wrong, I’m right” by some regulars on this thread. Obviously you and Fred and a couple of others are much smarter than me, has studied religion much more than me, and therefore my opinions and feelings, in your mind, are insignificant and worthy of only disdain and contempt on your part.
So be it.
I only encourage you to beware of who is masterminding this movement to center the election on Romney’s religion. It would appear that the MSM wants to use the evangelicals to do their dirty work and thus split the Republican party and not allow us to work cohesively to elect a Republican as President. Many of the comments in this thread show that that effort may be working.
176 Loryienne // May 13, 2007 at 12:13 am
I thought that after one faux pas, I would not post again. Now, I see I’ve made two, no make that several more than that–but I am posting again just because I felt some questions were sincere–and it felt rude to ignore them.
First of all, someone along the way said something like–this is a satirical site, stop whining. It has taken me all day, but you’re right. I come here to laugh about Liberal thought–well, I need to either be willing to acknowledge that Liberals are people with feelings and I should be more careful about them–or be willing to laugh at myself also. I prefer the latter. (tongue in cheek here)
I also noted someone “laugh” about my reading the scriptures “nearly every day.” Well said, I am not consistent as I should be. I am a sinner.
And if conserve-a-tips was including me when he or she said, “I recognize that if they do not understand their faith, then that is not a reflection on the faith,” then “Thank you–that is relief. I am not the brightest, and it takes some pressure off.”
Last confession–Its-just-me, I think you are right about Psalms 82. If you have a little time, check these out–I suspect you might know some by heart, they are well-read places–Matt 5:48 and also 6:8 & 9. Acts 17:28-29; Romans 8:16-17; Hebrews 12:9; I think you could use 1 John 4:6-7 to reason that they all mean God becomes our Father when we have love, but my beliefs lead me to take them literally.)
Also, I didn’t mention that I appreciated your points about Satan and about Eve. We believe that Satan would not follow God’s way–and if he took God’s power, it certainly would not have been to bless everyone. God blesses us all. We also believe that the fall was necessary to give us a time to walk by faith and to choose between right and wrong–long story.
conserv-a-tips–I believe that The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are one in purpose, one in their essence–absolutely unified. I also believe that the Father and the Son have bodies and the Holy Spirit is a Personage of Spirit.
On your other question, Romans 8:8-9 says–So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you …” One of our scriptures says that the natural man is an enemy to God and remains so until he submits to the enticings of the Spirit. I believe that God loves us and we can feel it even as sinners–we are far from perfect and only Christ can lead us to perfection. But we please God when we let Him into our hearts.
We in this thread are different. We would each like to convert the other–terrible difference, but we can get through it. As a better, more grounded communicator above said, our common areas are on the broader definition of Christianity.
And I don’t pray for my enemies enough–and they aren’t any of you–because we are likely praying together–especially for the lost soldiers in Iraq.
And myword, I want to be your neighbor.
PS Because no one should even want to hear from me again, so I am apologizing for my mistakes in advance.
177 Laughing@You // May 13, 2007 at 12:16 am
Ms RightWing, Ink
You do know Maryland was founded as a Catholic Colony? Unfortunately for Catholics, Cecil Calvert was big on religious tolerance, and the Protestant Episcopal Church took over, much like the religious right is trying to do today.
178 Laughing@You // May 13, 2007 at 12:23 am
Loryienne,
What a nice person you are. Your family should be very pleased with you.
Thanks
(Please disregard my handle, it is not for you.)
179 Effeminem // May 13, 2007 at 5:14 am
And here I was enmeshed in deep philosophical matters.. ie, is it a good thing that Sum 41 decided to return to punk-rock-influenced melodies and remade one of their better bonus tracks as a new single? Or are their generic, buoyant adolescent rebellion lyrics grown banal with repetition?
I think I need to hear March of the Dogs in stereo to answer these burning questions.. it’s clearly inspired by Green Day’s foray into political-punk, but is it referential, satirical, or merely unoriginal? The nuance doesn’t carry through the low-quality prerelease version. : (
Oh, but I don’t think Scott was making fun of Mormons so much. I mean, obviously he doesn’t share their beliefs, and I think he wanted to point out how divergent they are from mainstream protestantism. Whatever. I think the main thing he was mocking was the secularization of all religion by political candidates, and the tenets of Mormonism were just examples. It’s greeeaat to be religious when running for president, as long as you don’t articulate your beliefs or act on them or use them to inform your judgement. Mormonism is a good example because it is slightly kooky by our standards, yet we would almost never hear anything specific about it in the election coverage.
I bolded that in case someone read my idle prattle and skipped the apologia.
180 Darthmeister // May 13, 2007 at 9:52 am
I find it fascinating that those self-righteous divisive whiners here have co-opted what “respecting other people’s beliefs” means. They want us to believe that it means “accepting the beliefs of others that attack or own beliefs” or possibly “embracing the beliefs of others as valid.” Balderdash.
Okay, if you want to play that little game, let’s get one thing straight, if anyone was first disrespecting Christian beliefs it was Joseph Smith disrespecting the historical teachings of the mainline Christian church as well as that of the greater Roman Catholic Church – insofar as its teachings are “solo scriptura”. Smith even went so far as to invent a new book, “The Book of Mormons”, which attempted to justify his new Moroni-delivered “revelations” from God. If anyone was first disrespectful of other people’s Christian beliefs (which is what my critics are whining about), it was Joseph Smith when he claimed the Christian church as it then existed was apostate and his was the newer, latter and better revelation which condemned American Christendom as apostate. Joseph Smith in his History of the Church Vol 1:1-20 claimed an encounter with a “heavenly personage” who revealed to him all the present Christian churches “were wrong . . . that all their creeds were an abomination . . . [and] that those professors [of those churches] were all corrupt.” Even how the Book of Mormons itself came into being through “divination/clairvoyance/ magic is a direct attack on the Bible and mainstream Christendom. so who is being “intolerant” here?
And it doesn’t stop there. So if we’re going to argue “intolerance”, it seems to me it was the founder of Mormonism who was intolerant of all those other hard-working, sincere and devout Christians of that time in American history who attended mainline churches that Smith so enthusiastically despised.
So my critics should cut the faux crocodile tears and quit trying to portray mainline Christendom as the boogey man in this manufactured kefuffle of yours.
181 Darthmeister // May 13, 2007 at 10:02 am
Just the Facts,
If you had posted: “I believe the Mormon movement has the capability to do more damage to this country than the Islamo-fascists movement”, can you imagine the firestorm you would have created? I’m sure the Mormons would have called you a bigot and liar and I would agree with them BECAUSE THAT’S PRECISELY WHAT YOU ARE. I find it interesting that the Mormons who have posted here haven’t similarly condemned you for your hateful bigotry toward “evangelical Christian fundamentalist”. Yes, I find that interesting indeed.
And having previously defended Mormonism to further your goal of bashing evangelical Christians who are defending the Bible’s portrait of the Everlasting God and Father of the Universe, if you had instead posted the inflammatory comment above, would you instead be engaged in bashing Mormons for objecting to your contemptuous bigotry? This all goes to prove what a double-minded, divisive troublemaker you really are. All smoke and no light. Think about it … or in your case, feel about it.
182 Ms RightWing, Ink // May 13, 2007 at 10:42 am
Darthmeister
Where can I get one of those Seer Stones. I looked on ebay, but no luck.
183 ericbrin // May 13, 2007 at 10:52 am
Congratulations, fundamentalists. It looks like you won the argument. Have a happy Mothers Day!
184 Ms RightWing, Ink // May 13, 2007 at 2:52 pm
Explain fundamentalist. Never thought of myself as such, but who knows–maybe I am one and never knew it. I sort of think of Rev Phelps when I hear that title
185 Darthmeister // May 13, 2007 at 3:26 pm
ericbrin,
What I find interesting is how everybody and their cousin Vinny can vigorously debate political and religious issues (particularly if it involves condemning “evangelical Christian fundamentalists”) and that’s their constitutional right even if it offends someone. Yet when “evangelical Christian fundamentalists” vigorously defend their faith and the teachings of the Bible against all comers – from secular liberals, atheist fundamentalists, now Mormons and yes even Muslims – we’re labeled Islamofascists. And not one Mormon who posted here protested this totally despicable, unfair comparison.
History is pretty clear Mormon leadership believed mainstream Christendom is apostate and following the Mother of Abominations. No wonder some of you reacted the way you did in villifying us for holding to honestly held beliefs founded upon historical fact.
An ex-Mormon speaks out. As the author says, “The Mormon Church also has a long and consistent history of bashing Christians and Christianity.” There are any number ways to Google information about Mormonism, the rest of you can decide for yourself through your own study. However, personally I’ve discussed issues of religion and faith with Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Children of God, Christian Scientists for decades on end. It is true Mormons have toned down their condemnation of mainstream Christendom the last thirty or so years, but I find it interesting when Scott merely reproduces some of the extra-biblical tenets of Mormonism he is taken to task for his exposé and we’re villified for defending our own faith in light of the extra-biblical dogmas that Mormons have used to bash Christians over the head. I guess its a two-way street after all and nobody has a monopoly on being offended. So let’s cut the victimology crapolla, it’s unbecoming to true conservatives.
The bottom line, I may have few qualms about Mitt Romney but his Mormon faith won’t affect my vote one way or the other. His obvious commitment to traditional family values and his adherence to general conservative principles are commendable, though he certainly has appeared to do some minor flip-flopping here and there, what else is new? I’m no bigot, if a person is qualified they should get the job and they would have my full suppor even though they may entertain a few “kooky beliefs”. Just so long Mitt doesn’t turn into another Jimmy Carter who, ironically, is a mainline Baptist who has increasingly embraced the religious tenets of liberalism over the decadees.
186 Darthmeister // May 13, 2007 at 6:24 pm
Ms RightWing,
Fundamentalists (or “fundies” as we are affectionately known by open-minded, compassionate liberal seculars) are people who have claimed to have experienced the saving grace of an Almighty Creator and who then subsequently have the unmitigated gall to actually try and understand Holy Scripture in the most direct and contextual manner possible – despite liberal “Christians”, Atheists, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Agnostics, Humanists, Mormons, and people who worship rocks and trees telling them how wrong they are for using the 66 books of the Bible as their only guide to understanding more about God and the true nature of man.
187 Darthmeister // May 13, 2007 at 9:08 pm
I might have to amend my previous claim that no other religion or religious sect deserves to be compared to Islamofascism. I believe this kind hatred toward Christians isn’t nearly as widespread as that which Muslims fundamentalists have (or maybe it is and Christians aren’t the whiners like people of other persuasions) but at least the victim in this case doesn’t end up being beheaded.
Video of Hindu extremists attacking a Christian pastor.
Yeah, that pastor was probably some Christian fundamentalist so he got what he deserved for daring to disrespect other religions with his narrow-minded teachings about Jesus being the only way, right gang?
188 Laughing@You // May 13, 2007 at 10:47 pm
“Fundiesâ€
I’ve never heard that before, are you sure they don’t say “funnies”?
When a dear old church lady first heard the Living Bible she was so outraged that anyone would taper with Holy Writ that she shouted: “The Bible that Paul carried is the only one I’ll ever want”; clutching her Authorized King James Version to her chest.
Now, she was kinda funny, if you know what I mean.
189 Laughing@You // May 13, 2007 at 10:57 pm
A Republican “Fundie” was heard to say when asked how far he would go to prevent the teaching of Evolution; “I will go till I fall off the edge of the earth!”
190 Laughing@You // May 13, 2007 at 11:13 pm
Prolific pomposity!
191 Adventures in Mormonism » Blog Archive » Upcoming posts: Mormon perspectives on life, the universe, and, well, everything // May 14, 2007 at 1:56 am
[...] As a response to both on-going silly postings on the net and the PBS broadcast “The Mormons”, I’ve wanted to write about several subjects, including: [...]
192 diamond jim // May 14, 2007 at 11:18 am
re #150
To Just the facts.
To conclude what kind of nation we are from comments posted at Scrappleface is to make the same mistake the rest of the world makes by drawing conclusions about America from the LA/NY crap produced and spread by self-propagating , self-promoting manikans in those cities aided by the MSM.
Like you…
the only conclusion I get from reading all this is we are fortunate to be able to do it freely because that freedom has and is being paid for with self-less service of our military.
Thank you for your service from a fellow vet(AF) ..
As for the rest of you..
John McCain said it, lighten up and get a life.
193 bott // May 14, 2007 at 2:32 pm
It is interesting, and rather amusing, to see people who advocate tolerence and complain about the intolernce from others (specifically from the political left in this country) show so much intolernce for others.
Both those who agree with the views of the LDS church and those who don’t should try being a bit more “tolerent” themselves if they expect others to be tolerent of them.
194 blackhawk452 // May 15, 2007 at 4:12 pm
Hairborn, You said that Scott, nor any christian would ridicule the faith of any other christian. Then you go on to post a lot of twaddle that boils down to “WAH! Jos Smith said we were wrong!”
Get a grip. EVERY christian Church says EVERY other Christian Church is wrong. And all your silly crap that tries to make a Church that professes the Salavation of Christ, and practices baptism by immersion and the laying on of hands to receive the Holy Spirit is, in some way not Christian, is eyewash.
You are involved in a sectarian attack on the faith of other Christians, and having a lot of high-fives from other Inquisitors can’t make you right.
It can only make sure that both your faces are in plain sight.
Then you bleated, “Jesus, who previously lived in heaven with God the Father, the Holy Ghost and his brother Satan came in spirit and occupied the body of Mary’s baby. Now your average Mormon knows little or nothing of this teaching as they are not qualified for higher levels of instruction, knowledge and information.”
That would mean that it is a secret from ALL Mormons. Because I am a mormon of 30+ years; attend 4 services a week, go to the Temple, am teacher of the Gospel Doctrine Class, and I have never heard that, anywhere but here…from you.
You are a fount of ignorance and lies against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And I will not discuss this further with you. It will just harden your heart in your hatefulness.
Excuse my dust.
Casey Blackhawk
195 blackhawk452 // May 15, 2007 at 4:39 pm
Scott, I have been a fan for a long time. But in all that time I never read the threads to find out what constitutes my fellow fans. I only came to this thread to communicate that I think it is a mistake to secularize christianity. We have enough enemies without that.
But I have been stunned by the hatefulness I have found here. And I won’t be back. I will miss your wit. I miss Robin William’s wit. I miss a lot of funny folks whose work I once loved.
But I don’t go places where Christianity is under attack. And it is here.
Goodbye, Pard.
Casey Blackhawk
196 EXT // May 16, 2007 at 5:38 pm
One error glares from among all the discussion above:
JFK, the real one, not the JFKerry wannabee, DID allow his religion to intrude into his presidency.
Remember, his primary religion was Liberalism.
It does appear he kept his backup, Catolicism, in check.
197 OpenMinded // May 17, 2007 at 12:05 am
I am a “Christian” because I believe in Jesus Christ.
I believe that He is my Savior.
I believe that He is the Redeemer of the World.
I believe that it is only through the merits of Christ’s atoning sacrifice in Gethsemane and on Calvary and His resurrection on the first Easter morn that I can hope to return to live with God in Heaven.
I believe that I must strive to live my life according to what Jesus taught.
I think that all people who believe as I do in Jesus Christ’s divinity — regardless of the particular denomination of their membership — are also “Christians.”
I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Some call me a “Mormon.”
You can tell me that as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints I am not a “Christian” and that I don’t believe in Jesus Christ, but I DO.
YOUR saying that I’m not a “Christian” does not define me as non-Christian. My beliefs define me, and I am a Christian.
Religious bigotry is not Christian. If you say you’re a Christian, you cannot be a religious bigot.
198 jcm56 // May 18, 2007 at 7:22 pm
Let me offer a perspective as a lifelong member of the LDS church and a devout pragmatist:
Regardless of how you feel about “The Mormons” and their beliefs, think about what actually matters from a political standpoint if a Mormon were to win the White House.
To gauge this, ask any Mormon you know personally the following questions:
1) How do you feel about the importance of family?
2) How do you feel about government entitlement programs and the principle of self-reliance?
3) How do you feel about private charities and companies heading up responsibilities traditionally mishandled by inflated government agencies?
4) How important are families?
5) What obligation do individuals have to help each other?
6) Which is better, big government or small government?
7) Who is your personal redeemer?
Okay, so that last one is just to refute some of the ‘kooky’ (read: bigoted) things offered by Scott and others on this thread.
I’m not going to guarantee perfect conservative responses to all of these questions, just about 80-90%.
The point I am trying to make is that for whatever doctrinal disagreements exist between the LDS Church and other churches, we are not your enemies. A vote for a Mormon doesn’t have to be an unconditional endorsement or acceptance of the tenets of our faith. Rather, if you believe the guy will lead the country in the correct way, you should vote for him.
Personally, I wish Mitt Romney happened to be something other than a Mormon, because some in the Christian right can’t seem to handle it. I say that as a lifelong Mormon myself. What I like most about Mitt is the idea of a President actually vetoing a spending bill, not that he might secretly enact laws that will gradually establish a Mormon caliphate. Please…
199 Pundit Reviewer // May 21, 2007 at 10:33 pm
Romney left Mass with a socialist healthcare regime and gay marriage. What more needs to be said? He is a Republican John Kerry who will say anything to get elected. What bothers me most is not his wacky Mormon beliefs to which he ascribes (which is fundamentally no differnet from Scientology) but the fact that Romney is the epitome of a slick politician who lacks a moral center. He is fundamentally a dishonest person and that to me is the most important quality in any president. So I will not vote for him under any circumstances. At least Hillary admits that she is for cradle to grave socialism. You guys should really do some research on his positions. google the wonderfully written article by my friend Don Feder entitled “Mitt Happens” if you want to learn the truth about what a fraud he is.
200 Pundit Reviewer // May 21, 2007 at 10:43 pm
As to #198 comments: Does supporting homosexual scoutmasters signify “family values?” Romney supports homosexual boy scout masters and also ruled against Catholic Charities exemption from having to provide adoption services here in Mass to homosexual “families.” Even Dukakis said that Romney should have given CC an exemption based on thier religious beliefs. While it may be true that most Mormons are exeleent people. (It has been my experience that this is the case) the fact of the matter is that Romney is is not pro-family if you look at his positions on abortion, The truth will come out regarding Romney. He is a fraud intentionally decieving people about who he is and what he believes. Cosnervatives are being fooled if they think he is actually a Reagan Conservative. he is as liberal as Rudi and McCain in many regards.
201 Pundit Reviewer // May 21, 2007 at 10:50 pm
all you need to know about mitt is right here http://www.massresistance.org/docs/marriage/romney/record/
Read it and weep Romney fans.
202 kwl // May 23, 2007 at 10:10 am
I can’t believe that a loving God would take away his Prophets and Apostles in the modern day.
I can’t either believe that God and his son, even Jesus the Christ, would ignore the rest of the world other than the ground that Jesus walked upon. Why wouldn’t he have visited other parts of the world have have a witness to that affect. Is God an unloving God as to deny us of these things?
203 rv // May 25, 2007 at 7:41 pm
I just have one question for the Mormons with hurt feelings:
What in Scotts listing of Mormon doctrine is inaccurate?
Please. PLEASE list them.
204 rv // May 25, 2007 at 7:43 pm
Re: the last sentence above.
I’ll wager that you can’t.
205 kwl // May 28, 2007 at 3:42 pm
Ok RJ, I’ll give it a shot here.
– God is not eternal, but was once a man on another planet
Whoever comes up with that is from another planet, or reading some of that anti morman hate literature they hand out in some of those other christian churches. Real Christian like.
– God is married to his goddess wife and has spirit children
OK, you read Genesis right? God had his son Jesus create the world so that his spirit children could gain a body so they can become like him. And must be tested on this earth to deserve the right to live with him again. Now, if God created man in his own image for his spirit children then why wouldn’t he have a wife. What would be so wrong with our loving Heavenly Father to not have an eternal companion such as a wife? Is that so evil?
– Jesus is the “spirit brother†of Lucifer and all humans are their siblings
OK, lets go back to the beginning. When planning to create the earth and let his spirits gain an earthly body, some spirits rebelled at the idea of the plan (thus the one third of the hosts of heavens followed the leader of that who was Lucifer. Before the plan we were all Brothers and Sisters, Lucifer just went bad and some of the hosts of heaven followed him
– The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are three separate gods
– The Father and the Son each have separate, physical bodies
What is so strange here? God gave his only begotten son…that means two people right? As far as three godheads, I haven’t seen the holy spirit (i.e. Holy Ghost) described that way. Just as the Holy Spirit only, but is part of the God head.
– The book of Mormon is more accurate than the Bible
Lets just assume for a moment, for arguments sake that God did intend to have written scriptures of his children that lived on other Continents, but because of wickedness those scriptures had to be saved, only to be uncovered in the early 1800’s and transcribed. So the belief of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints believes that the Bible is the word of God, as long as it has been transcribed correctly, also the Book of Mormon to be the word of god. We have to believe that through the many transcribed before and after the dark ages, (and there are many versions of the Bible out there) that there may be some mistakes in there. Now if there were also mistakes in the Book of Mormon, that book has only been transcribed once since the early 1800’s so logically what is more accurate?
– The gospel was lost until Mormon founder Joseph Smith restored it and there is no salvation outside of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Absolutely not true. We do not believe that just because you do not believe in the Church and follow it’s teachings that you will be burned in Hell along with Lucifer and his followers. We do believe that you can only be saved by the grace of our Savior, even Jesus Christ, but it must be followed by works. Faith without works is blind.
– It is impossible to be saved by God’s grace alone
See answer above.
206 mgdavis // Jun 7, 2007 at 12:16 pm
low blow Scott…you’re better than that. You can put any religion’s beliefs / doctrines under the microscope and find some “kooky” things…have you ever read the old testament?
I’ve always enjoyed your satire and considered you a like-minded conservative ally. But your bigotry towards mormonism is no different than the left’s bigotry towards Christianity in general.
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