2320335 responseshttp://www.scrappleface.com/?p=2320One+Year+Later%2C+Some+Katrina+Victims+Still+Slow+to+Respond2006-08-29+10%3A03%3A03Scott+Ott so far ↓

• 1 Darthmeister // Aug 29, 2006 at 3:03 pm

  Hmmmm. Some Katrina victims are making a good living in Houston in the field of burglary and murder. The latter will get some a one way ticket to raising their living standards for the next twenty-five years.

• 2 Fred Sinclair // Aug 29, 2006 at 3:04 pm

  SOMEHOW UNLESS NANCY JUST GOT “BORN AGAIN” IT JUST DOSEN’T SOUND LIKE HER. The wonderful thing is that there is nothing wrong with her that Jesus can’t fix. Imagine if she accepted Jesus and became a real Christian and not just a Christian in name only?

  Fred Sinclair, Heirborn Ranger

• 3 upnorthlurkin // Aug 29, 2006 at 3:07 pm

  Whaaaa? Is the comments section out of service too? Is this the fault of the Undocumented Ernesto?!
  Wouldn’t you love to hear a politician, any politician say some of these same things?! Do you suppose Nance has ever been inconvenienced?!
  Personally, I think an event such as Katrina will take a lot longer than a year to clean up. NoDak had a flood in 1997. Our house had minimal damage and yet the contents of my basement sat in my living room for over a year until it was safe and clean enough to move the stuff back into the basement. (Sorry for the run-on sentence….) It’s tough to find a contractor after events like Katrina too. They can pick and choose the work they take on….can you blame them for choosing the “gravy” first?!

• 4 nylecoj // Aug 29, 2006 at 3:09 pm

  If only!! Someone needs to say it.
  Until the end of the last sentence of the first paragraph I was not sure this was going to be satire. Maybe that is what makes for the best type. Which is what we have here!

• 5 RedPepper // Aug 29, 2006 at 3:19 pm

  Magic Mushrooms in the Rice-a-Roni™ today, Nancy?

• 6 conserve-a-tip // Aug 29, 2006 at 3:19 pm

  OK, so I am in the Twilight Zone for real now. Wake me up. Somebody!!

• 7 JamesonLewis3rd // Aug 29, 2006 at 3:36 pm

  In the NYT link cited above, Pelosi said, “One year later, neither the tragedy Katrina caused — the flooding of New Orleans and the devastation of the Gulf Coast — nor the tragedy that it exposed — the extent of the federal government’s failure to provide a life of security and dignity to all of our citizens — have been adequately addressed…..” (emphasis mine)

  Why does the part I highlighted sound just plain stupid to me?

  Why are the local authorities not even mentioned?

  What, exactly, does she see “exposed”?

  She’s sick.

• 8 GnuCarSmell // Aug 29, 2006 at 3:45 pm

  Eerie. Supernatural. How Nancy got inside my head to channel my exact thoughts, I don’t know…

• 9 JamesonLewis3rd // Aug 29, 2006 at 3:46 pm

  Off-topic, but interesting:

  What If We Left?

• 10 prettyold // Aug 29, 2006 at 3:49 pm

  Hey, have the pigs started to fly? That will be the day Piglosi says somethig like the above.
  Oh ,someone did say they saw Hillary getting on an airplane …so maybe…

• 11 prettyold // Aug 29, 2006 at 3:58 pm

  RE #3 Upnorthlurkin’, I’d just bet a cookie or two you didn’t sit and wait for George Bush to come and start cleaning things up for you.
  I think the big holdup (in more ways than one)in NO is Nagin and chums want ‘the people ‘ to be able to rebuild in the bad area that was flooded the worst. The Feds are saying “Oh ,please don’t rebuild your homes there”,and the Insurance Co’s are saying “Build there and you won’t get Insurance.”
  This is just great for the victims,cause they get to whine a lot while we support them .
  Has anyone starved to death in NO in the past year?

• 12 JamesonLewis3rd // Aug 29, 2006 at 4:25 pm

  If I was Nagin (cough), now that a year has gone by, I’d make a major announcement throughout the USA that, if there has been no debris removal from a “private property” within 30 days from NOW, it gets bulldozed because of the public health and safety risks and the bill will be in the mail, payment due in 30 days. Then, if that bill’s not paid, the property gets confiscated.

  Light a fire under ‘em.

  I was thinking, I’ll bet their landfill has become a fair-sized mountain–build the city on top of that.

• 13 RedPepper // Aug 29, 2006 at 4:38 pm

  #11 prettyold: “Has anyone starved to death in NO in the past year?”

  Emeril would never let that happen!

• 14 tomg // Aug 29, 2006 at 4:53 pm

  Rep. Wiliam Jefferson (D-uptown) didn’t flood – maybe he’ll use his 100K$ to help others meet Nancy’s expectations?

  Or recall Rev.Jackson from his MEast negotiations to help out?
  http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1154525961569&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

• 15 camojack // Aug 29, 2006 at 5:21 pm

  Looks like my prior comment disappeared…more of Katrina’s destruction, perhaps?

• 16 Maggie // Aug 29, 2006 at 6:25 pm

  How long was the comment section on the blitz?
  What did bush know and when did he know it?
  Scrapplers were deprived and we cried.

• 17 JamesonLewis3rd // Aug 29, 2006 at 6:30 pm

  RE: #16~~

  It was down long enough for me to start getting the shakes……

  

• 18 Ms RightWing, Ink // Aug 29, 2006 at 6:38 pm

  my, my ,my There sure were a lot of weird things happening in Scrapplville. I got up this morning and our beloved site was spamed, half of yesterday’s comments are gone and a beloved member of our family left 25 million e-mails in my mail box. Jessh, is it safe to leave home for the day

• 19 da Bunny // Aug 29, 2006 at 6:46 pm

  The past couple of years of my life have been quite a “challenge,” and Bush didn’t show up at my door ONCE to help me out! Come to think of it…neither did San Fran Nan! I guess that’s just another example of the “federal government’s failure to provide a life of security and dignity” for me! I didn’t even get a debit card for my trouble!

• 20 SGT USMC 1ea // Aug 29, 2006 at 6:57 pm

  OKay so I still have a few trees down on the back acre there miss fancy schmancy Nancy…so!
  Satire?…Ohhhh. sorry.

  Deus est Semper Fidelis

• 21 R.A.M. // Aug 29, 2006 at 7:42 pm

  I think the N.O. people watched the “Simpson’s” episode when Homer ran for Mayor.

  His campaign slogan was, “Can’t somebody else do it?”

  This seems to be the thinking of MOST there, LED by their enabler, the ignorant Nagin!

• 22 R.A.M. // Aug 29, 2006 at 7:46 pm

  Nagin opened his speech with, “By the way, Where the *!@# was Superman when Katrina hit? Probably making another movie in Hollywood! Too busy to help the poor black folk out! What we need is a black superhero, ——I mean, along with Michael Jackson”

• 23 Darthmeister // Aug 29, 2006 at 7:51 pm

  I bet the lamestream media is really ticked that Ernesto isn’t a category 5 hurricane. Did it ever get upgraded from a tropical storm?

  Scott, when you referred to Katrina victims being slow to respond, you weren’t referring to the 10,000 bloated corpses were you?

  And here’s an inciteful analysis of the botched and biased media coverage of hurricane Katrina beyond the estimates that there would be at least 10,000 corpses in New Orleans alone.

• 24 JamesonLewis3rd // Aug 29, 2006 at 7:54 pm

  I find it curious that Pelosi considers “dignity” a thing the federal government (or anybody) could/should dole out. Dignity is not something to be bestowed, in my opinion.

  Dignity is an outgrowth of respect (not the gangland/terrorist version), and respect is earned.

  I’ve heard it said several times today that a large portion of the victims were renters and, therefor, don’t have access to the same monies the landowners (those who are actually doing something, that is) receive and blah-blah yadda-yadda–what’s that got to do with it? Is it just that they want “checks”!?!

  There’s plenty of assistance out there to get them back on their feet even if they choose not to go back to NO, but especially if they do.

  Give me the reins to that mule, I’ll get ‘er goin’. HYAH!

  Does anyone really want the POTUS to micro-manage every aspect of human life?

• 25 R.A.M. // Aug 29, 2006 at 8:25 pm

  JL3: I had not heard that, “—a large portion—-were renters–”

  If that is the case, then they really didn’t lose much, seeing as they probably rented their furnishings from Rent-a-Center also, —–meaning they should have ‘recovered’ within a few weeks.

  Some/MOST actually came out ahead, after they got to their new residence with the new TV and IPOD’s they looted.

  That and their dozen or so $2000 debit cards we paid for.

  Houston residents are now feeling like the people whose in-laws moved in and refuse to leave.

  That sounds like a good remake to “Failure to Launch”, call it “Failure to LEAVE”. It would probably be as big a bomb as the original though.

• 26 R.A.M. // Aug 29, 2006 at 8:35 pm

  One other thing. The MAIN story behind New Orleans “refugees” is, MOST of them fail to realize the help they received was NOT owed them in the first place!

  AND before you libs get your panties in a bunch, I am talking about the HELP they received AFTER they were out of harms way.

  The sooner they, and the libs realize this FACT, the sooner we can have a “rational” conversation again in America!

  The swift flow of people back into N.O., BEFORE the levees have been reinforced, is equivalent to saving a rock climber, and having him start another climb a few days later.

  Rational people accept a LITTLE personal responsibility!

  Which leaves out the “Cradle to Grave” liberals.

• 27 JamesonLewis3rd // Aug 29, 2006 at 9:20 pm

  RE: #25~~

  “Large portion” just sort of came out of my fingertips on its own and, I admit, is really too vague and, probably, inaccurate. “Significant percentage” might have been better or, maybe, “a lot” or “many.”

  But, then again, now that I’ve become curious and put my fingers to work Googling:

  An AP article from last January says a Brown University study saying “More than half of those who lived in the city’s damaged neighborhoods were renters, the analysis found. Those people were unlikely to have property insurance, and because so many are poor, would be unlikely to have the resources to return to the city.”

• 28 JamesonLewis3rd // Aug 29, 2006 at 9:21 pm

  

• 29 Ms RightWing, Ink // Aug 29, 2006 at 9:49 pm

  If folks in Pa. had the same mentality as New Orleans, there still would be debris in Johnstown.

  Now it may just be me but it sounds like this disaster was worse tha New Orleans, but they say New Orleans was worse. You decide:

  The Great Flood of 1889
  On May 28, 1889, a storm formed over Nebraska and Kansas, moving east. When the storm struck the Johnstown-South Fork area two days later it was the worst downpour that had ever been recorded in that section of the country. The U.S. Army Signal Corps estimated that 6 to 10 inches (150 to 250 mm) of rain fell in 24 hours over the entire section. During the night small creeks became roaring torrents, ripping out trees and debris. Telegraph lines were downed and rail lines were washed out. Before daybreak the Conemaugh River that ran through Johnstown was about to leave its banks.

  During the day, things only got worse as water rose in the streets of Johnstown. Then, in the middle of the afternoon of May 31st, the South Fork Dam, 14 miles (23 km) upstream, burst, allowing the water of the 3-mile- (5 km) long Lake Conemaugh to cascade down the Little Conemaugh River.

  The inhabitants of the town of Johnstown were caught by surprise as the wall of water bore down on the village, traveling at 40 miles per hour (64 km/h) and reaching a height of 60 feet (18 m) in places. Some, realizing the danger, tried to escape, but most people were hit by the surging floodwater. Many people were crushed by pieces of debris, and others became caught in barbed wire from the wire factory upstream. Those who sought safety in attics, or managed to stay aloft of the flood water on pieces of floating debris, waited hours for help to arrive.

  At Johnstown, the Stone Bridge, which was a substantial arched structure, carried the Pennsylvania Railroad across the Conemaugh River. Some people who had been washed downstream became trapped in an inferno as debris that had piled up against the Stone Bridge caught fire, killing 80 people. The fire at the Stone Bridge burned for three days. Afterwards, the pile of debris there covered 30 acres (120,000 m²).

  Aftermath
  The total death toll for the disaster was 2,209 dead. 99 entire families had died, including 396 children. 124 women and 198 men were left widowed, 98 children lost both parents. More than 750 victims (1 of every 3 bodies found) were never identified and rest in the Plot of the Unknown in Grandview Cemetery.

  Working seven days and nights, workmen replaced the huge stone railroad viaduct that had all but disappeared in the flood.

• 30 Ms RightWing, Ink // Aug 29, 2006 at 9:51 pm

  Remember, the inhabitants of the town of Johnstown were caught by surprise, New Orleans residents watched it coming on TV while drinking cold Lone Star or Jax beer

• 31 Darthmeister // Aug 29, 2006 at 10:00 pm

  …and Schlitz Malt Liquor, Ms RightWing.

• 32 Ms RightWing, Ink // Aug 29, 2006 at 10:01 pm

  Here is what good Democrats will do to you. Dennis Kucinich–boy mayor, why did you do
  this

  http://www.newsnet5.com/news/9754826/detail.html

• 33 Ms RightWing, Ink // Aug 29, 2006 at 10:17 pm

  Oh I don’t know, blame it on the pain pills but is everyone stupid or what.

  A newspaper poll in The Fargo Forum asked the question: Are terrorist manipulating the media?

  Out of 1095 answers

  70.68% said yes (whew)

  18.45 % said no (gotta help them folks)

  10.87% said I don’t know (time to turn off the soaps and take a course in critical thinking.

  Now back to my usual stagnant lifestyle–thanks for letting me post away like a crazed fool.

• 34 Hawkeye // Aug 29, 2006 at 11:05 pm

  Good one Scott. If only it were true… sigh!

  I think that half the people of New Orleans who have now settled elsewhere will never return. First, there’s no infrastructure (electricity, gas, etc.) to support many of them even if they did go back. Second, many are too poor to rebuild because they were living off the government to start with. Third, it was bad before, but now it’s a REAL dung heap. Fourth, would you live “between a lake and the sea that’s built below sea level” knowing now what could happen?

  Regards…

• 35 Hawkeye // Aug 29, 2006 at 11:08 pm

  Ms RW,
  is everyone stupid or what.

  Yes, sometimes I think so.
  Regards…

• 36 streeter // Aug 29, 2006 at 11:59 pm

  Libs in the audience can relax. A replay shows that Pelosis’ comments came w/ Gen. Honore aiming the main gun of an Abrahams tank at her head.

• 37 Beerme // Aug 30, 2006 at 7:22 am

  Remember, the inhabitants of the town of Johnstown were caught by surprise, New Orleans residents watched it coming on TV while drinking cold Lone Star or Jax beer

  Comment by Ms RightWing, Ink — August 29, 2006 @ 9:51 pm

  See what drinking cheap beer will get ya?

• 38 MargeinMI // Aug 30, 2006 at 7:44 am

  Morning Beerme! Congrats again on your BLUE RIBBON beer at the State Fair!!!!!!!

• 39 Ms RightWing, Ink // Aug 30, 2006 at 8:17 am

  No doubt they drank some cheap beer.

  The younger generation of journalist who hate Bush enough to lie, lie, lie,– called Katrina America’s worse disaster. When one
  reads the account of the horrible flood and compares 986 known deaths in Katrina to 2000 in Pa. that day

  I would say the dollar damage may be worse in some aspects because of the widespread area of damage of Katrina, but the flood killed more and caused as much damage considering the year and what people owned at that time.

  Where I lived in California there was also a horrid dam break

  The second worst disaster in California history began on March 12, 1928, near midnight, in the remote San Francisquito Canyon area of Saugus. The St. Francis Dam failed at 11:57:30, a time pegged to the loss of electricity from the Southern California Edison transmission lines to Lancaster. The lines were located 90 feet above the dam’s eastern abutment.
  The dam’s reservoir of 12.5 billion gallons of water poured down the narrow canyon, initially in a 140-foot-high wall of water, and swept nearly 500 men, women and children to their deaths. In California history, only the 1906 San Francisco earthquake killed more people.
  It was a disaster of epic proportions, one that remains largely unpublicized and unknown, today.
  As the flood carved out a path to the sea, it lay waste to Castaic Junction, Piru, Fillmore, Santa Paula and Saticoy before emptying into the Pacific Ocean, more than 50 miles away, near Ventura.

  The official death toll of the St. Francis stands at 495. The true toll is probably higher when undocumented farm laborers are added to the rolls of the dead. No one knows exactly how many perished at their camps in the fields along the floodpath. It is known that more than 60 inhabitants of Power House No. 2, located 7,300 feet downstream from the dam, were killed when the 110-foot-high wall of water wiped the power house, and the family living quarters, from the face of the earth.

  At a Southern California Edison construction camp located along state Route 126 at the Los Angeles-Ventura county line, 84 of the 150 workers encamped there perished. The power of the flood is hard to comprehend, but after traveling more than 50 miles down the Santa Clara River Valley, an AT&T lineman reported the wall of water was still 15 feet deep and three-quarters of a mile wide when it reached the ocean at Ventura.

  taken from
  http://www.scvhistory.com/scvhistory/sg031101.htm –

  History bears repeating about disasters, Katrina was bad–but in the old days there were no Jesse Jackson’s

• 40 Darthmeister // Aug 30, 2006 at 8:24 am

  Hey, camojack, Bu$Hitler stole our comments. It doesn’t get this is a parody site so he thinks Scott is a lib. It’s pay back for when all the libs falsely blamed the White House for “outing” Valerie Plame when it was Dick Armitage all along. And as everyone now knows, Armitage hated neo-kkkons and did not support the Chimperor’s war in Iraq. How ironic, eh, that the White House was getting blamed for something than an anti-Bush hack did. Well, par for the course.

• 41 Darthmeister // Aug 30, 2006 at 8:25 am

  Hey, camojack, Bu$Hitler stole our comments. He doesn’t get this is a parody site so he thinks Scott is a lib. It’s pay back for when all the libs falsely blamed the White House for “outing” Valerie Plame when it was Dick Armitage all along. And as everyone now knows, Armitage hated neo-kkkons and did not support the Chimperor’s war in Iraq. How ironic, eh, that the White House was getting blamed for something that an anti-Bush hack did. Well, par for the course.

• 42 Darthmeister // Aug 30, 2006 at 8:32 am

  Just as in New Orleans 2005, reality once again intrudes and demonstrates how economic disaster awaits a city when DemDonks are in control. Thanks for the link, Ms. RightWing.

  It’s also fascinating to me that rural citizens have three times the number of firearms per capital as does those liberal residents in urban areas, yet urban areas have five times the crime. I actually may be understating the case.

• 43 Darthmeister // Aug 30, 2006 at 8:34 am

  …per CAPITA. Sheesh, time for some coffee.

  I see its no Schlitz for Beerme. Only the best, right? Nothing like home brew is what I hear. Never had any but would be willing to be an experimental subject some day.

• 44 Shelly // Aug 30, 2006 at 9:13 am

  Speaking of beer…

  http://www.indepundit.com/archive2/2006/08/coffins_beer.html#

• 45 camojack // Aug 30, 2006 at 9:44 am

  Ernesto, shmernesto…

• 46 clt // Aug 30, 2006 at 10:17 am

  New Orleans is the new headquarters for the Darwin Awards. An increased number in awards will be issued for these “special” folks, starting at Mayor Nagin’s office. So if a catchy rap song slamming the feds for not promptly wiping their a**es doesn’t earn a Grammy, they will still have a nice Darwin Award.

• 47 tomg // Aug 30, 2006 at 11:49 am

  Author Unknown – arrived via e-mail:

  The following update on terror alerts in Europe was just released:

  The British are feeling the pinch in relation to recent bombings and
  have raised their security level from “Miffed” to “Peeved.” Soon, though,
  security levels may be raised yet again to “Irritated” or even “A Bit
  Cross.” Londoners have not been “A Bit Cross” since the blitz in 1940
  when tea supplies all but ran out. Terrorists have been re-categorized from
  “Tiresome” to a “Bloody Nuisance.” The last time the British issued a
  “Bloody Nuisance” warning level was during the great fire of 1666.

  Also, the French government announced yesterday that it has raised its
  terror alert level from “Run” to “Hide.” The only two higher levels in
  France are “Surrender” and “Collaborate.” The rise was precipitated by
  a recent fire that destroyed France’s white flag factory, effectively
  paralyzing the country’s military capability.

  It’s not only the English and French that are on a heightened level of
  alert. Italy has increased the alert level from “Shout Loudly and
  Excitedly” to “Elaborate Military Posturing.” Two more levels remain:
  “Ineffective Combat Operations” and “Change Sides.”

  The Germans also increased their alert state from “Disdainful
  Arrogance” to “Dress in Uniform and Sing Marching Songs.” They also have two
  higher levels: “Invade a Neighbor” and “Lose.”

  Belgians, on the other hand, are all on holiday as usual, and the only
  threat they are worried about is NATO pulling out of Brussels.

• 48 Maggie // Aug 30, 2006 at 11:54 am

  Ms Right Wing…….”stuck on stupid” is the phrase”.

  ( hope you feel better soon)

• 49 GnuCarSmell // Aug 30, 2006 at 12:08 pm

  After I realized Nasty Pelosi was channeling my exact thoughts yesterday, I’ve changed my password.

  Take that, conniving shrew!

• 50 Darthmeister // Aug 30, 2006 at 12:29 pm

  Speaking of channeling, I wonder if sHrillary is still channeling Eleanor Roosevelt?

  tomg, those are funny.

  Here’s the jihadist alert charts in Muslim lands:

  Slight: silhouette of Koran
  Moderate: silhouette of AK-47 grasped in raised fist
  High: silhouette of an infidel being beheaded
  Immediate Danger: silhouette of a kafir Muslim being blown up by an IED
  Extremely Dangerous: silhouette of a mushroom cloud transposed on a Koran.

• 51 Darthmeister // Aug 30, 2006 at 12:29 pm

  …hmmm. here postie, postie, postie.

• 52 tomg // Aug 30, 2006 at 1:51 pm

  Darthmeister -
  Well done, plus
  Safe: silhouette of Kofi

• 53 Maggie // Aug 30, 2006 at 2:03 pm

  The newest form of terrorism here in the USA is to mow down unsuspecting citizens with an SUV.Today 15 were injured and 1 killed.A few months ago,in Durham,NC an Arab/American ran down 8 college students.

  My question is,will we be allowed to carry water while walking?

• 54 Rick H // Aug 30, 2006 at 2:05 pm

  San Antonio also took a large number of refugees, survivors, victims, garbage, whatever. As of today the number of murders this year is the same as all of last year coincidence? I dont think so, as soon as they got here the crime rate went up.
  If the insurance companies would pay up for the portion they owe the people of N.O. instead of claiming that the flood water tore the roof off, maybe they could demolish the houses, clean up the garbage and start rebuilding.

• 55 Shelly // Aug 30, 2006 at 2:47 pm

  Maggie, excellent question, but I don’t think these events will cause us any restrictions. They’re not “terrorist related.”

• 56 Darthmeister // Aug 30, 2006 at 4:31 pm

  Maggie, I’ve been following that story, too. What the lamestream media and law enforcement will claim is that even though the perp was a Muslim, he cannot be connected to al Qaeda therefore he isn’t really a terrorist!

  These “officials” must think we’re morons. We can connect the dots and I’m connecting them between the Washington D.C. sniper, Chapel Hill, NC, Seattle, Washington, and now San Francisco, CA.

  In the latest case an eyewitness even heard the perp refer to himself as a “terrorist”. And in each of these three cases (and there are others) we’re dealing with a male Muslim between the ages of 17 and 40. Duh!

  Do you remember this one. Here’s CNN.com’s account:

  The nation’s largest bus company said it was assured by the FBI that the attack was an isolated incident, not an act of terrorism. [buwhahahahaha!]

  Buses were pulled off the highways shortly after the crash, which took place around 4:15 a.m. CDT near this middle Tennessee city.

  “Officials have assured me that they believe this tragic accident was the result of an isolated act by a single, deranged individual,” Lentzsch said. [buwhahahahaha!]

  At a news conference later in the afternoon, FBI agent R. Joe Clark said the attack was not an act of terrorism. [buwahahahahahaha!]

  “Our evidence leads us to believe at this time that this was an isolated incident,” Clark said. [buwahahahahaha...notice how many times they have to tell this lie.]

  Clark identified the attacker as 29-year-old Damir Igric, a Croatian who entered the United States in March 1999 on a 30-day visa.

  The agent said Damir got on the bus Tuesday in Chicago, Illinois, the bus’ departure city. He remained on board through stops in Indianapolis, Indiana, Louisville, Kentucky, and Manchester, Tennessee.

  The bus’ final destination was Orlando, Florida, with another intermediate stop in Atlanta, Georgia.

  Clark said there were 41 people on the bus, including the driver and an associate driver.

  The bus crashed after the attacker slit the driver’s throat with “a razor or box cutter,” then grabbed the steering wheel, sending the bus careening off Interstate 24 near Manchester, the driver reported.

  Clark would not specify the weapon used, saying only that it was a “sharp instrument.”

  The crash occurred near the intersection of I-24 and state Highway 4, about halfway between Nashville and Chattanooga, police said.

  Thirty-two people were injured, and taken to several hospitals.

  The man who attacked the driver was among the dead, said Steve Deford, Coffee County 911 director. A spokesman for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms said an ATF agent at the scene reported the attacker had been thrown through the front window of the bus.

  Federal officials said he was carrying a Croatian passport.

  Dr. Ralph Bard, a surgeon at the Medical Center of Manchester who treated the bus driver, quoted the driver as saying the man who attacked him had asked several times about the route of the bus.

  “The man came up this last time and cut his throat with what he described as either a razor or a box cutter, and then he actually grabbed the wheel and forced the bus across the median into the oncoming traffic,” Bard said the driver told him.

  In these specific cases I believe our own government is lying to us about Muslim fascist threats right here in America. And once again the lamestream media is censoring the fact these thugs who are trying to kill as many Jews and Americans as possible in a single attack ARE MUSLIMS!

• 57 myword // Aug 30, 2006 at 6:14 pm

  The Galveston Hurricane of 1900

  The Galveston Hurricane of 1900 made landfall on the city of Galveston, Texas, on September 8, 1900. It had estimated winds of 135 miles per hour (215 km/h) at landfall, making it a Category 4 storm on the Saffir-Simpson Hurricane Scale.[2]

  The hurricane caused great loss of life. The death toll has been estimated to be between 6,000 and 12,000 individuals[3], depending on whether one counts casualties from the city of Galveston itself, the larger island, or the region as a whole. The number most cited in official reports is 8,000, giving the storm the third-highest number of casualties of any Atlantic hurricane, after the Great Hurricane of 1780, and 1998’s Hurricane Mitch. The Galveston Hurricane of 1900 is to date the deadliest natural disaster ever to strike the United States. By contrast, the second-deadliest storm to strike the United States, the 1928 Okeechobee Hurricane, caused approximately 2,500 deaths, and the deadliest storm of recent times, Hurricane Katrina, has caused approximately 1,600 deaths.

  The hurricane has no official name and is referred to under various descriptive, unofficial names. Common names for the storm include the Galveston Hurricane of 1900, the Great Galveston Hurricane, and in older documentation, the Galveston Flood. It is often locally known in the Galveston area as The Great Storm .

  ************************************

  If you Google 1900 Hurricane Galveston, there are many
  sites with stories and pictures of the aftermath of the storm. Disposing of the dead before disease was a huge problem for the survivors. The authorities even went so
  far as to conscript some of the survivors and at gun point made them gather up the dead and put them on piles of debris and burn them. The job was so daunting,
  they took a boatload of the dead out to sea and dumped them. A couple days later, the bodies washed up on the beach. It’s quite a story.

  Also, check out what Galveston did after the storm.
  They built a seawall and raised the entire city 8-12 feet. They raised every single building left in the city including the streets and put up a 17 foot seawall which has protected the city to this day.

  Check it out.

• 58 myword // Aug 30, 2006 at 6:21 pm

  tomg re: #47

  That is sooo funny. Would you mind emailing it to
  me at lettypack@aol.com.

• 59 JamesonLewis3rd // Aug 30, 2006 at 7:30 pm

  I see President Bush got Ernesto to calm down so as not to cause his brother, Jeb, undue hardship.
  
  Why didn’t he do that for New Orleans?
  
  Huh? HUH!?!
  

• 60 JamesonLewis3rd // Aug 30, 2006 at 7:39 pm

  Kofi Annan must be stopped.

• 61 Maggie // Aug 30, 2006 at 8:18 pm

  Darth re#56

  Thank you for the added input.As always,you are a fountain of knowledge.Good job.

• 62 onlineanalyst // Aug 30, 2006 at 8:20 pm

  Is it safe to post here again?
  Gee whiz, Darth, you and your compatriots of fact-checking must have stirred up the (David) Corn flakes.

  After receiving five (!!) notifications yesterday in the barely-light-outside morning of the then new Pelosi thread, I achieved a “first” in comments. Not to worry though: it, like all of our various pearls of wisdom, is adrift in cyberspace. (San Fran Nan must really mean those threats she promises in the latest issue of Time.)

  Re NO: Have we forgotten the junket to the Netherlands that the politicos took this past year on the taxpayers’ dime to “study” the levees and drainage systems of the Lowlands? Were they spending their recreational hours in the Amsterdam brothels and “coffee shops”? The latter is a code word for “glaucoma treatment centers”.

  On another blood-boiling topic: Why is the Logan Act not being enforced re the antics of Carter, Jackson, etal? Check this out. (Scroll back for the thread commentary.)

• 63 onlineanalyst // Aug 30, 2006 at 8:36 pm

  Discussing the peculiar acts of road rage lately that smack of creating an atmosphere of terror, the escalating rantings of Ahmadaboutjihad in Iran, and the denial of reality by the Lefties is the insightful Dr. Sanity. Her recent threads have been sterling.

• 64 Darthmeister // Aug 30, 2006 at 9:34 pm

  Headlines from Drudge:

  Ernesto fizzles out over Florida…
  More proof that global warming is for real and is man-made.

  UN condemns Israeli strategy as ‘immoral’; Cluster bombs used near end of hostilities…
  UN decides Palestinian suicide bombers meet Geneva Protocols as it continues to protect Hezbollah terrorists.

  Hurricane John takes aim at Mexico beach resorts…
  Reuters uncovers Bu$Hitler plot of guiding hurricanes with the Rovian Weather Control Machine. Will such evil ever stop?

  VIDEO: Witness says driver declared himself a ‘terrorist’…
  But the FBI and MSM know better and insist that he isn’t a Muslim terrorist

• 65 camojack // Aug 30, 2006 at 9:34 pm

  So anyway, speaking of “an outpouring of…charity”, how about helping some commercial sponsors come to the aid of various causes, for free?

• 66 Darthmeister // Aug 30, 2006 at 9:36 pm

  THE PHOTOSHOP DIET: CBS MAKES KATIE COURIC ‘SLIMMER’…
  More honesty from the reality-based liberal community of journalism.

• 67 camojack // Aug 30, 2006 at 9:40 pm

  Ernesto fizzles out over Florida…
  More proof that global warming is for real and is man-made.
  Comment by Darthmeister — August 30, 2006 @ 9:34 pm

  I was way ahead of them on that one.
  (See my 9:44 AM comment…#45, it was)

• 68 JamesonLewis3rd // Aug 30, 2006 at 9:42 pm

  The Logan Act (18 U.S.C.A. § 953 [1948]) is a single federal statute making it a crime for a citizen to confer with foreign governments against the interests of the United States. Specifically, it prohibits citizens from negotiating with other nations on behalf of the United States without authorization.

• 69 Darthmeister // Aug 30, 2006 at 11:24 pm

  Hey, camo, you nailed it.

  Why don’t we sign up for the National Weather Service. Like you probably were, I was monitoring Ernesto at weather.com and when it hit Cuba it all but died. Shortly it was down-graded to tropical storm status, and as you observed at your site … break out the umbrellas.

  It was almost comical to hear the rantings and ravings of the lamestream media Monday and Tuesday as Ernesto was “bearing down” on Florida. It was like Baghdad Bob but in reverse, in this case the lamestream media was ballyhooing a whopper of a hurricane potential (because of global warming bias, of course, so this thing had to get really big, really fast, right?) but then you look at the satellite photos and it just looked like a huge rain system with a touch of swirl on the outer perimeter.

  Of course there were dire warnings about the “tropical depression” that would “reconstitute itself as it moved back into the Atlantic waters”. Yeah, maybe. And then a top of the hour radio reporterette then tried to blame the state of Florida for “over-reacting” to Ernesto. Buwahahahahahaha, what hubris! It was the freakin’ media beating the drums the last week about this weather system. Shame on Governor Jeb Bush for buying into the media hysteria and actually evacuating southern coastal areas OVER A STUPID TROPICAL STORM!

  I lived through a Category 3-4 in 1961 in Texas, hardly anyone used to evacuate back then and I doubt the death toll was much higher than it is today. Don’t get me wrong, a Category 5 and I would be out of there.

• 70 JamesonLewis3rd // Aug 30, 2006 at 11:44 pm

  Off and on today, FOX News was reporting on a car chase over in the Dallas area and they informed us viewers that they used a tape-delay in such situations just in case something horrible happened.

  I couldn’t help but appreciate that.

• 71 Ms RightWing, Ink // Aug 31, 2006 at 12:12 am

  myword

  Thanks for reminding me about the Galveston hurricane. It goes to show how dimwitted our media is to think Katrina was the worse disaster ever. Many times our nation has faced perilous times–only once did we give out debit cards so people could by large screens, take great vacations and have sex-change operations.

  I just returned from the poorest city in America–Cleveland. I got a chance to go to an Indians game. There may not be any money for the peons but they sure rob you for food. $3.50 for a cup of coffee (no refills). sigh.

• 72 MargeinMI // Aug 31, 2006 at 7:31 am

  OT

  Canning Crisis!!!! I’ve got a bushel of peeled tomatoes in my refrigerator, and lots of jars and rings, but not a dome in sight!! Wish me luck on my search this morning–headed south; all efforts at north and east exhausted yesterday. YIKES!

• 73 Maggie // Aug 31, 2006 at 9:04 am

  Good Morning!
  Where is everyone? Maybe you’re ‘hold-up’ with Ms Righty in the bunker until Ernesto blows by’.

  Hope you have a flashlight,bread,peanut butter and plenty of drinking water with you and Where’s Waldo. (I’m sure Ms RW will provide plenty of her WFCCC’s.

• 74 Ms RightWing, Ink // Aug 31, 2006 at 9:04 am

  good morning. Is everyone one vacation or are you like me,just now lazily dragging my body to the coffee pot?

• 75 Ms RightWing, Ink // Aug 31, 2006 at 9:10 am

  Maggie

  Are my secret mental messages reaching you?

  I was holding my temples and saying, “make someone post, make someone post.”

• 76 R.A.M. // Aug 31, 2006 at 9:11 am

  While watching Fox and Friends earlier, after hearing their “expert” spit out reasons for gas prices dropping, I could not take it any longer and sent them this email, (which BTW, they did NOT mention):

  I thought you guys were smarter than that!

  C’mon,

  You just spent the last segment asking why gas prices are going down. The OBVIOUS answer is “Blame Bush”!

  IF he is responsible for the prices when they are high, (as the libs claim), THEN he MUST be responsible for them when they are low—–right?

• 77 Darthmeister // Aug 31, 2006 at 9:25 am

  Top-of-the-hour ABC radio news report:

  I quote: “The Economy is clearly headed in a positive direction …BUUUUUT that could change.”

  Duh! Aren’t there such things as economic cycles? Of course its going to change, its just a matter of when. Sheesh.

  An attempt at media spin:

  I paraphrase: “Today President Bush sets out on his third attempt to raise support for his war in Iraq [notice it was "his war in Iraq]. This coming at a time when a majority of Americans no longer support the war because they don’t believe Iraq had anything to do with 9/11.”

  Boy, these media pinheads must think we’re morons…well, maybe some Americans (liberals) are. But the case to go into Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. It had to do with Saddam and his consistent violation of sixteen different UN Resolutions regarding transparency with respect to his WMD capabilities. However, a rational argument can be made that once the war against Saddam’s regime was won (and that war was won within three weeks), the fight then turned to putting down Islamofascists within the country and those coming across the borders to get a piece of the action. Iraq has turned into a killing field and is merely one more theater of operation for America’s war on terrorism. Not to mention that Iran is feeling the heat (hence its the growing insanity of its leadership) from having American troops to its east and to its west.

• 78 Maggie // Aug 31, 2006 at 9:26 am

  Ms right Wingre #74

  I am holding my stomach and saying “send cookies..send cookies”.

  It is apparent that you also reached R.A.M.
  (na na nu nu)

• 79 Shelly // Aug 31, 2006 at 10:04 am

  Good morning all. I’m waiting to see what Ernesto brings to the Tarheel state tomorrow, as John swirls in the Pacific. Anybody know what happened to F, G, H and I?

• 80 JamesonLewis3rd // Aug 31, 2006 at 10:08 am

  RE: #78~~

  The Pacific and Atlantic typhoons have different naming lists.

• 81 JamesonLewis3rd // Aug 31, 2006 at 10:19 am

  RE: #76~~

  Yes, I, too, find the incessant stream of misinformation spewed by the MSM more than a little irritating.

  I don’t watch nor do I listen to them but I hear and read enough about them to wonder why, why, oh, why does America continue to permit them to insult us.

  Their time is not long–they are in self-destruct mode, as evidenced by the utterly disgusting comments made by that Olbermann dude’s comments yesterday.

  Reading what he said infuriated me, to say the least–the very least.

• 82 JamesonLewis3rd // Aug 31, 2006 at 10:23 am

  Please, pardon my atrocious grammar.
  I get flustered sometimes.

• 83 JamesonLewis3rd // Aug 31, 2006 at 10:31 am

  Olbermann concluded his program with a six-minute diatribe against Rumsfeld: “The man who sees absolutes, where all other men see nuances and shades of meaning, is either a prophet, or a quack. Donald H. Rumsfeld is not a prophet.”Olbermann equated the Bush administration with “the English government of Neville Chamberlain” which “knew that its staunchest critics needed to be marginalized and isolated.” The MSNBC star charged, “The confusion is about whether this Secretary of Defense, and this administration, are in fact now accomplishing what they claim the terrorists seek: The destruction of our freedoms, the very ones for which the same veterans Mr. Rumsfeld addressed yesterday in Salt Lake City, so valiantly fought.” The U.S., Olbermann asserted before concluding with Edward R. Murrow’s “we must not confuse dissent with disloyalty,” now “faces a new type of fascism.”

  GRRrr…..

• 84 Shelly // Aug 31, 2006 at 10:44 am

  RE: 79, thanks! Didn’t know that, since I don’t usually pay any attention to Pacific storms. Agree with you on Olberman and, if it’s any consolation, his ratings are in the basement.

• 85 Shelly // Aug 31, 2006 at 10:49 am

  More MSM nonsense is linked to at Power Line, where a blogger shows a comparison of what Rumsfeld said in his speech (which IMHO was brilliant) and what the AP said Rumsfeld said in his speech.

  http://www.qando.net/details.aspx?Entry=4496

• 86 Maggie // Aug 31, 2006 at 11:02 am

  Shelly
  It has been raining “cats and dogs” over here in Wilson County.Last night the thunder was so loud that it shook the house and scared the dog and cat………..and me.
  Wilson is a flood area so I’d better get out the Kiyak and Mae Wests.

• 87 R.A.M. // Aug 31, 2006 at 11:16 am

  Here’s a nice little story about our poor misunderstood, ILLEGAL immigrant friends near Los Angeles:

  http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51746

  Will this finally wake the sleeping R.I.N.O.’s?

  Funny how the libs point to, “the poor innocent children and families” when they say we should give amnesty, but NEVER to people like these or the gangs of latinos that actually run most of our prisions now.

• 88 R.A.M. // Aug 31, 2006 at 11:18 am

  Shelly,

  Mark Levin played Rummy’s speech the other night with “Patton music” in the background!

  It was pretty cool!

• 89 Maggie // Aug 31, 2006 at 11:30 am

  Check out Scott’s new post.

• 90 JamesonLewis3rd // Aug 31, 2006 at 11:34 am

  RE: #86~~

  Yes, I saw that story the other day and couldn’t help but think back to the thread we had here a couple of weeks ago where May 4, 1970 was discussed somewhat.

• 91 Maggie // Aug 31, 2006 at 11:39 am

  Scott’s new post,where did it go?
  Really,I saw a new one and even commented as #4.

  Scott tell them it was there…….Scott?????

• 92 JamesonLewis3rd // Aug 31, 2006 at 11:55 am

  WordPress must be having issues again (or still).

• 93 Godfrey // Aug 31, 2006 at 1:06 pm

  Might be time to switch back to the old system, eh, Scott? Sometimes an Edsel’s just and Edsel.

• 94 Godfrey // Aug 31, 2006 at 1:14 pm

  Shelly: re: #84

  Interesting! And even more interesting, the AP has now rewritten the story to more accurately reflect what Rummy said.

  Maybe they have a few decent editors after all. Then again, maybe they just read that blog.

• 95 Darthmeister // Aug 31, 2006 at 1:43 pm

  Buwhahahahahaha! Rush just busted a self-righteous, whiny liberal on the air. She called in and was complaining about how “people are struggling” during one of the greatest economic opportunities in history. Of course they are, even Jesus said, “You will always have the poor.” Is that Caesar’s fault?

  Well anyway, she drifted to the classic liberal whine about health care and that her neighbor has to make choices between eating and buying the drugs she need. I started yelling at the radio when Rush stepped up the the plate and said, “Well …. what are YOU doing about that?”

  She obfuscated, “I tell her where she might go to get help and I help her by taking her grocery shopping.”

  Rush, “No, no, what are YOU doing … are you buying her groceries so she can buy her medication.”

  “Uhhh, no … I’m not able to help her in that way.”

  “Oh, I see, you want everyone else to pay for her groceries or medication but YOU, being her neighbor won’t.” Grand slam for ol’ Rushbo.

  And this after the woman had previously admitted that she is not struggling like other people. This, my dear Scrapple friends and liberal trolls, is exactly what I’ve been saying: Liberals invariably define their compassion by how much of your and my hard-earned money they can take out of our backpockets through confiscatory taxes enforced by governmental threat to bust you if you don’t voluntarily comply with ever higher and higher taxes to continue floating an immoral welfare state.

  This also reminds me of AlGore in the run up to the 2000 elections who kept whining about how much HIS OWN MOTHER was struggling because of the lack of government programs. I also yelled at the radio then, “You moron, SHE’S YOUR MOTHER AND YOU’RE RICH BY MOST DEFINITIONS OF RICH, so why don’t you freankin’ help your own mother out!” And this shortly before it was found out that AlGore was also a penny-pinching landlord who had fixed a tenant’s toilet for about two years. And there, my friends, is where many liberals live, not all, but many liberals live, in their ivory towers of self-absorbed nihilism and denial. What did Jesus tell his disciples to do when they came face to face with another person’s needs, “YOU feed them.” Not get Caesar to feed them.

• 96 Darthmeister // Aug 31, 2006 at 1:46 pm

  …who had NOT fixed a tenants toilet/plumbing for two years. Here’s the article which proves what I’ve said.

• 97 JamesonLewis3rd // Aug 31, 2006 at 1:58 pm

  They’re not used to being scrutinized. Their Carte Blanche has been revoked. Every word they print is no longer accepted as unequivocal fact. The editors will have to come in from the golf course. Ethics might even be observed before all is said and done.

  The enemy has realized that their not-so-clever disguise has been revealed; I doubt they’re embarrassed, though, rather, they are probably angered–it’s all Bush’s or Rumsfeld’s fault, dontchano.

  Kind of stupid, though, to do exactly what Rumsfeld was calling them on, within minutes of the words coming out of his mouth.

• 98 JamesonLewis3rd // Aug 31, 2006 at 2:08 pm

  Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.~~James 1:27

• 99 Godfrey // Aug 31, 2006 at 2:42 pm

  Hank: re: #94

  It’s a mindset thing. I think whiny, navel-gazing intellectual liberalism (as opposed to classical liberalism or economic liberalism, both great things in my view) is a lot like clinical depression.

  Think about it. Depression is an overriding negativity that has little or no causal link with reality. It’s a sort of hopeless, helpless malaise that colors every facet of one’s outlook. There is no balance: everything is bad.

  Is liberalism any different?

  My aunt is just such a person. She is a fellow world traveler so we have great conversations about far-off lands and interesting cultural eccentricities. But I’m occasionally reminded that she’s a flaming liberal.

  We were comparing notes on Japan recently and the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki came up; “I’m just mortified that I’m a citizen of a country that did something so horrible,” she said, as if I was supposed to agree with her.

  I’d had a few beers and was feeling a little ornery. So I said: “What? Rescue millions of Filipino, Chinese and Korean civilians from conquest by a nation of fanatical rapist/murderers who had, by the way, attacked us first? Or do you mean the part where we helped Japan rebuild into a world-class economy afterward?”

  I’d hit that “sweet spot” between two beers and three (my limit) where the words just come a-tumblin’ out and not a one of them is slurred.

  She just sighed and said “Well, I just think it’s horrible.”

  I love her just the same.

• 100 Shelly // Aug 31, 2006 at 2:58 pm

  RE: 94, I enjoyed that as well. I also appreciate Rush being one of the few who is busting the “millions of people don’t have health care” myth as well. Illegal immigrants are shutting down hospitals in this country, and libs expect us to believe that Americans are denied health care, in defiance of the law? That makes as much sense as arguing that Walmart is bad for middle class Americans.

• 101 camojack // Aug 31, 2006 at 3:15 pm

  The Pacific and Atlantic typhoons have different naming lists.
  Comment by JamesonLewis3rd — August 31, 2006 @ 10:08 am

  Typhoons happen in the Indian Ocean…but they’re all cyclones. Anyway, as you said, different naming lists.

• 102 JamesonLewis3rd // Aug 31, 2006 at 4:26 pm

  Yes, not sure why I typed “typhoon” (I meant “cyclone,” honest) but, to be exact:

  The terms “hurricane” and “typhoon” are regionally specific names for a strong “tropical cyclone”.

  * “hurricane” (the North Atlantic Ocean, the Northeast Pacific Ocean east of the dateline, or the South Pacific Ocean east of 160E)
  * “typhoon” (the Northwest Pacific Ocean west of the dateline)
  * “severe tropical cyclone” (the Southwest Pacific Ocean west of 160E or Southeast Indian Ocean east of 90E)
  * “severe cyclonic storm” (the North Indian Ocean)
  * “tropical cyclone” (the Southwest Indian Ocean)

  http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/tcfaq/A1.html

  Taiwan was hit by a typhoon in the last couple of weeks or so.

• 103 onlineanalyst // Aug 31, 2006 at 6:33 pm

  I can’t add anything to this perfect storm discussion except that it has been depressingly overcast for too many days here. Ernesto, it is time to move along.

  Re media duplicity and manipulation, Melanie Phillips has some excellent commentary and a roundup of evidence of such in the ME. (Hat tip to Dr. Sanity)

  Chillingly, Phillips concludes: “To date, as far as I can determine, not one mainstream editor or proprietor has acknowledged this corruption of the western media. The scale of this corruption now threatens to have a lethal impact on the course of human history. Hatred now drives not just the jihadists but their western dupes, too. Truth and freedom are indivisible. The deconstruction of the former inevitably presages the destruction of the latter. This is the way a civilisation dies.”

• 104 Darthmeister // Aug 31, 2006 at 6:36 pm

  I’d had a few beers and was feeling a little ornery. So I said: “What? Rescue millions of Filipino, Chinese and Korean civilians from conquest by a nation of fanatical rapist/murderers who had, by the way, attacked us first? Or do you mean the part where we helped Japan rebuild into a world-class economy afterward?”

  Game, set, match. Baadaabing! You packed a lot in a few words. You always were economical, Godfrey.

  And the sheer idiocy of the BDS moonbat crowd was on full display today in our letter to the editor section in our local newspaper. First was the barking moonbat female, probably a burned out anti-war hippy, who yipped about the war in Iraq based on lies. I guess she hadn’t heard that Plamegate just flamedout with the revelations that it was State Department employee Armitage who was the leaker, not Rove/Cheney/Libby, not to mention that Fitzgerald (who must have know it was Armitage “outed” the liar Joe Wilson’s wife Valerie Plame), after reviewing all the evidence determined no laws had been broken anyway. Doh!

  As to the WMD issue, that is so passe since it has been documented that more than 500 WMD in various states of operational readiness (UN Resolution 1441 made no distinctions as to operational readiness and year of manufacture – so please, liberal trolls, don’t compound your own lies about Iraqi WMD) and the Duelfer/Kay report declared even without WMD stockpiles Saddam’s regime was indeed in “material violation” of Resolution 1441.

  The second barking moonbat, the male of the species, ranted how the words of Iranian President Ahmadaboutjihad had been twisted by a Bush conspiracy to make it sound like he wanted all the Jews dead in Israel! According to him, an expert in Arabic I assume, what Ahmadaboutjihad really said was it was the Zionist regime in Jerusalem that he wanted dead, not the other Jewish pigs and apes. So here’s this blithering dhimmie liberal acting as an apologist for a certifiable Muslim nutcase that may soon be in control of nuclear weapons! Once again I am forced to marvel, what strange bedfellows the left-wing liberal loonies (LLL) and militant Islamofascist fruitcakes make.

• 105 JamesonLewis3rd // Aug 31, 2006 at 7:44 pm

  RE: #102~~

  Yes, the many cases of so-called “fauxtography” dove-tail quite well with the seditious editorializing (an example of which is the way in which AP had originally twisted Rumsfeld’s words) to demonstrate the in-your-face collaboration between the MSM and the enemy.

  AP and Reuters should be shut down, as well as any others who follow their example.

  RE: #103~~

  I wrack my brain (cell), sometimes, wondering if these LLL really believe the unquestionably unrealistic, illogical things they say or if they are, somehow, ingeniously imaginative propagandists seeking to recruit fellow moonbats for some sort self-aggrandizing cult-like following–or if they are just insane. I’ve concluded it is the latter–certifiably–which makes the first two true as well.

  Makes me want to throw a bucket of ice water in their face while yelling, “Snap OUT of it!”

• 106 Godfrey // Aug 31, 2006 at 8:00 pm

  Hank: re: #103: “the barking moonbat female, probably a burned out anti-war hippy, who yipped about the war in Iraq based on lies”.

  At worst it is a war based on mistakes. At best it is a war based on America not getting nuked 10 years down the road. Squealing “no blood for oil!” just makes people look ignorant.

  Here’s an interesting exchange on the subject by Hugh Hewitt and Thomas Ricks, two very intelligent fellows with divergent views on the subject.

• 107 Godfrey // Aug 31, 2006 at 8:39 pm

  JL3: re: #104: “AP and Reuters should be shut down, as well as any others who follow their example.”

  By whom? The military? Biased and irresponsible reporting…on both sides…is part of the “free press” equation. I wouldn’t have it any other way.

  “Democracy is messy” – Donald Rumsfeld

• 108 JamesonLewis3rd // Aug 31, 2006 at 9:30 pm

  RE: #106~~

  While my post was pretty much nothing more than hyperbole, treason is enough reason for me. I think that would make it within the purview of the FBI.

  The specifics of the incidents to which I referred went well beyond “bias” or “irresponsible”–they were blatant fabrications and misrepresentations; bald-faced lies.

  “Free Press” is not the issue. Collaboration with the enemy is the issue.

• 109 JamesonLewis3rd // Aug 31, 2006 at 9:36 pm

  RE: #107~~

  First line should read:

  While *that portion of* my post…..

• 110 JamesonLewis3rd // Aug 31, 2006 at 10:04 pm

  Here’s a laugh:

  Mohammad Sa’idi: One of the products of heavy water is depleted deuterium. As you know, in an environment with depleted deuterium, the reception of cancer cells and of the AIDS viruses is disrupted. Since this reception is disrupted, the cells are gradually expelled from the body. Obviously, one glass of depleted deuterium will not expel or cure the cancer or eliminate the AIDS. We are talking about a certain period of time. In many countries that deal with these diseases, patients use this kind of water instead of regular water, and consume it daily in order to heal their diseases.

  In other words, the issue of heavy water has to do with matters of life and death, in many cases. One of the reasons that led us to produce heavy water was to use it for agricultural… medical purposes, and especially for industrial purposes in our country.

  

• 111 Beerme // Aug 31, 2006 at 10:07 pm

  Unfortunately, people need to be savvy enough to recognize real reportage from faux reportage. It’s bad enough that misrepresentations and fauxtography appear in Western mainstream press releases, where the public is somewhat prepared to separate the wheat from the chaff but in less sophisticated lands, where the public is much more ignorant and naive, well it’s much, much worse.

  This is one of the main reasons why the Arab public continues to support so many nutjobs and their nutjob ideas.

• 112 Darthmeister // Sep 1, 2006 at 8:13 am

  From americanthinker.com:

  The descent of the Democrats into seeming madness is both frightening and puzzling. To those paying attention and of stable mind, the Democrats look something like Samuel Taylor Coleridge’s Ancient Mariner …

  The Republicans are hardly the last word in human wisdom, but right now they are the only ones acting normal. Sure, Democrats think they are making sense, but that’s only when they talk to each other. There aren’t enough grey-beard loons in the country to win national elections. What the Dems don’t get is that they have flagrantly and repeatedly crossed a clear red line in American politics: The line between being for our country or against it.

  Forget the word “patriotism.” The question is, do Democrats favor a strong and vigorous America that protects itself—- and the entire West—- against a monstrous and aggressive ideology? Americans don’t want to be in doubt about that. For the Democrats to be so completely blind to the signals they constantly send out is weird beyond words. It is self-destructive, and it degrades our political dialogue. We need sensible Democrats. As it is, the sensible ones who speak up are purged, like Joe Lieberman and Zell Miller.

• 113 Darthmeister // Sep 1, 2006 at 8:24 am

  JL3, I share your concern about the lamestream media and its irresponsible left-wing spinning of the news.

  Like free speech, the real cure for bad speech is more speech. If anyone should “shut down” the liberal media it is The People …. like us. The conservative blogosphere must continue holding the feet of the lamestream media to the fire. So far its done a pretty impressive job of tracking down fake stories and revealing them to the public. Of course the public’s exposure to the conservative blogosphere is limited to those with computers and those who happen to be of independent minds or conservatives.

  Of course the lefties are busy drinking their kool-aid at DailyKos, demoncrapunderground, and moveon, so there is little hope of seeing these people politically redeemed anyway. No great loss other than the fact their existence adds more liars to the noise that’s already out there.

  So I say the real recipe for addressing bad news gathering and dissemination is good news gathering and dissemination. We must beat the media at its own game, which shouldn’t be that impossible given how insane most journalists and editors have become when afflicted with BDS.

  After a while, hopefully within years and not decades, most decent, mainstream Americans will see the news media kool-aid for what it is and turn more and more to alternate news sources which paint a far more accurate picture of reality. It’s frustrating and a little bit scary that a cabal of liberal news organizations can shape public opinion, but I believe we’re on the threshold of the American people getting their information in new ways which bypass ABC/NBC/CBS/CNN/MSNBC/NPR/NYT/WaPo … ad nauseam.

• 114 MargeinMI // Sep 1, 2006 at 8:48 am

  Good morning all. Domes found–whew!

  Hank, I agree with your assessment and your optimism. I just fear it’s not happening fast enough. Especially when considering the huge percentage of politically ignorant folk in this country who vote on sound bites and headlines and simple name recognition. As weblogs gain credibility (and the speed with which they debunk–which is already incredible), it will happen eventually.

  In the meantime, it is frustrating trying to ’speak truth to’ idiots who will believe anything the MSM says. Why, just the other day I induced major eye-rolling by telling a friend I get most of my news from the internet. (He’s not computer savvy at all.) Also my mom who gets all her news from NPR, Time Magazine and the Detroit Free Press. sigh.

  I consider myself very lucky to have such diligent news hounds such as yourself and onlineanalyst to make it easy for me. :>)

• 115 Ms RightWing, Ink // Sep 1, 2006 at 8:59 am

  Is anyone else seeing Scrapple being spammed?

• 116 onlineanalyst // Sep 1, 2006 at 9:01 am

  I am not of the mind to shut down the media either. An informed public with access to the news is essential for a flourishing democracy, which is indeed messy in its vitality. I don’t want a government-run Pravda. Then again, I don’t want a media as a shadow-government running its own version of Pravda.

  That said, it is important to hold feet to the fire of any misinformation or disinformation generated by sloppy or agenda-driven media. The Internet has widened our access to news and commentary, allowing us to sift the wheat from the chaff and hold the media accountable.

  My concern is the susceptibility of the masses who form their opinions primarily from what they see on television. That medium may be the only source for the time-constrained, the incurious, or those lacking critical thinking skills. On television, the picture tells the story, and it is a story framed for easily digestibility by passive viewers, according to the slant taken by the editorial staff for quick consumption. Usually no context or breadth/depth of coverage is provided in this medium. Television can easily become a propaganda tool by the media savvy.

  The large question for those desirous of honesty by television news brokers is how to make this powerful tool accountable.

• 117 Darthmeister // Sep 1, 2006 at 9:03 am

  Yes, Marge, we need about two or three more years to really challenge the lamestream media and have enough credibility. Of course Scrappleface will always remain the News Fairly Unbalance, You Decipher, but there are plenty of legitimate news/commentary outlets like WorldNetDaily, Powerline, NewMax, etc.

  A good dose of FrontPagemag, AmericanThinker, TownHall, NationalReview, AmericanSpectator and Drudge (who will also carry your standard lamestream media fare) are more than enough to counteract media spin.

  But you’re right, we may be running out of time for the 2006 and 2008 elections, but when you think about it we’re far better off in counteracting the liberal drones and de-programming Americans who are naively being ambushed by the liberal national news media than we were say five or ten years ago. Unless the libs are somehow able to weasel their way into power and then pass legislation to shut down the Internet, conservatives ought to be able to make great inroads in debunking the lies of liberal humanist-socialists and their Bush-hating/America-hating cousins, the Islamofascists. We are at a very crucial time in our country’s history and no one else can do the work of keeping America free and informed on the domestic front than conservative bloggers. We must do battle with these left-wing informational fascists while the good men and women in America’s armed forces do battle with the Islamofascists on the frontiers of freedom.

• 118 onlineanalyst // Sep 1, 2006 at 9:08 am

  Wow! We are so often on the same wave length at the same time, Marge. Thanks for the compliment BTW. I just like to share what I have found around the blogosphere since I probably have the luxury of more time these days than the typical working person, caught up in earning their daily bread and attending to other responsibilities. Retirement has sharpened my nose for news.

• 119 JamesonLewis3rd // Sep 1, 2006 at 9:11 am

  RE: #112~~

  Yes. Thank you for saying in your 4th paragraph what I so miserably failed to articulate.

  To be honest (and at the risk of sounding defensive), when I said they (AP and Reuters) should be shut down, the scenario I envisioned had nothing to do with SWAT teams, Special Forces or crazed mobs with torches in the middle of the night.

  It was my thinking in my first post (#104) on the topic that it would be nice if there were alternatives to the wire services I mentioned and that public outcry would induce the various news media to switch which might, in turn, induce the fakers and liars to mend their ways or get kicked to the curb.

  Often, I am in a hurry to get my comments posted in order to not lose the flow of the thread and my word choices are less than succinct and miss the mark as to my exact thoughts and intentions.

  I know I’m a relatively new poster (I lurked for a while) here, so let me give this brief description of myself:

  While I am a Bible-thumper first and foremost, I’m a Constitution of the USA-thumper and a Bill of Rights-thumper, as well (and with equal enthusiasm).

• 120 Ms RightWing, Ink // Sep 1, 2006 at 9:16 am

  Back from the coffee pot. Lately I have tried to get onto Scrapple (last night) and I get this really long page of half scrapple amd a zillion lines of something else. At the top it has a red line with something about filtering your comments (srx?) and them wanting you to hit on that line.

  What is that all about? Has anyone got that message. I am afraid to hit on that red line.

• 121 Ms RightWing, Ink // Sep 1, 2006 at 9:17 am

  hello?

• 122 Shelly // Sep 1, 2006 at 9:29 am

  Ms. RW, I too have found some odd stuff at Scrappleface and a post I made last night is not here. I know Maggie found and lost a new post by Scott yesterday, but maybe it’s just Ernesto messing with her and I.

• 123 Ms RightWing, Ink // Sep 1, 2006 at 9:33 am

  The last few pages has also been majorly deleted

• 124 JamesonLewis3rd // Sep 1, 2006 at 9:47 am

  Basically, that indecipherable stuff that showed up on this web site last night, and a few other times recently, is nothing more than debugging information which is pretty much irrelevant to us visitors.

  I’m not sure that it means someone is hacking this site; more likely, from what I could glean from the mumbo-jumbo, there is something wrong with WordPress’s database interface or, maybe, the server software.

  It sure is annoying, eh?

• 125 MargeinMI // Sep 1, 2006 at 9:55 am

  More OT:

  Does anyone know a surefired way to get hot pepper juice off ones fingertips? In my pre-coffee stupor this morning, I forgot all the dicing and chopping of last night and rubbed my sleepy eye. YOWWWWWWWWWWZAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!

  I’ve washed extensively and coated them in sugar, but still….

  …timetomakethesalsa…..timetomakethesalsa…..

• 126 RedPepper // Sep 1, 2006 at 10:01 am

  Ms RW: I was experiencing problems with WordPress very recently (August 29), but they are all cleared up at this point – for me, at least.

  I am connecting to the internet with Microsoft Internet Explorer. Are you using something more exotic?

  See if you can cut-n-paste a portion of the strange stuff you are seeing; if you can, perhaps you can email it to Scott or someone else with some computer savvy.

• 127 MargeinMI // Sep 1, 2006 at 10:08 am

  One more OT and I gotta go:

  Did anyone stay up to watch Agassi and Bahgdadis play last night? Wow. Just wow. 6-4, 4-6, 6-4, 5-7, 6-3 (I think, it was late). The Old Man lives to play another day! To quote John McInroe in the post game interview, to the loser, “As a tennis player, I just want to say Thank You. That was one of the best games I’ve ever seen.”

  Andre goes to third round to play maybe the last game of his professional career. Again.

  Me, I still can’t take my eyes off of Rafael Nadal. [wiping drool from chin]

  Later sports fans!

• 128 Ms RightWing, Ink // Sep 1, 2006 at 10:36 am

  marge

  I have tried many methods without much luck so I went looking for answers:

  A cautionary note on preparing HOT peppers for storage or cooking. The “heat” in hot peppers is an oil called capsaicin that is contained in the placenta (membranes that join the seed to the fruit). This oil will easily get on hands and fingers during the cutting and cleaning process.

  If you then rub your eyes, nose or mouth, the oils will be transferred to these areas with a distinctly painful burning. Wear plastic gloves while cutting the hot peppers to prevent any of the oil from covering your hands. Wash hands after preparing is finished. Do not rub your eyes!

  Should you forget to use caution and end up with burning hands, gel from the leaf stem of an aloe vera plant offers immediate relief when applied to hands or other burning areas. Use the gel carefully. A 10 percent solution of chlorox will also neutralize.

• 129 Godfrey // Sep 1, 2006 at 10:40 am

  Hank and JL3:

  the real cure for bad speech is more speech.

  A fair point. Also, partisanship aside, it seems as if another layer of security has been added to the transparency of the system. It used to be the press keeping an eye on power (i.e. Watergate). Now there are also rank and file citizenry keeping an eye on the press.

  We must be doing somethin’ right.

• 130 conserve-a-tip // Sep 1, 2006 at 10:51 am

  Good morning Scrapplers. It is gorgeous here. A cool breeze, slightly overcast skies with the sun just peeking out. Oh what a blessing from the miserably hot days just a week ago.

  I got up this morning and served homemade waffles to my hubby as he jokingly said that he had an idea for Scrappleface in response to a news item that we saw this morning where the reporter actually said, “And Ernesto pounded South Carolina, as ALMOST a hurricane!”. He came up with this headline and storyline and I filled in the blanks:

  Democrats Give Ernesto the Boot

  Howard Dean announced today that the DNC would no longer encourage any media time to Ernesto, as the would-be hurricane had not lived up to its potential for blowing Al Gore right into the presidency. Hoping for mayhem and destruction on the part of Ernesto, Dean admitted that he was sorely disappointed that the immense storm had fizzled, breaching a contract to show President George Bush’s inept handling of disaster situations. “We even insisted on a Mexican name to capitalize on flooding illegal immigration, but Ernesto was just full of hot air and empty promises. We have our eye on John now, down in Mexico. Perhaps, like the storm surge, he can sweep his namesake – John Kerry -right into office.”

• 131 onlineanalyst // Sep 1, 2006 at 10:56 am

  Mark Steyn offers a roundup of his Katrina commentary from a year ago. What he says is as relevant today as it was then.

• 132 Darthmeister // Sep 1, 2006 at 11:27 am

  JL3, don’t worry, we assume the best about you. I think many of our posts are geared for the drive-by viewer who might drop in to see what’s going on. The rest of the time we’re preaching to the choir. I’m not aware of anyone who post here with regularity that would like to see the lamestream media frogged marched to some detention camp, but I for one wouldn’t mind kicking a few in the butt and yelling at them to quit spinning the news and lying to us. WE SEE WHAT YOU’RE DOING!

  Of course the savvy liberal editor or journalist knows you can’t fool all the people all the time, they target those Americans who aren’t as informed and who grew up blindly believing Walter Cronkite was only giving America the straight news.

• 133 Darthmeister // Sep 1, 2006 at 11:33 am

  Godfrey #112 … Amen!

  It’s the old saw, who’s watching the watchdog? It used tp be organizations like Accuracy in Media. Soon it may get to the point where its every media-savvy conservative watching the so-called watchdogs of the fourth estate! Let’s hope so.

  It still makes me angry to think about what the liberal lamestream media got away with during the Vietnam War, the 1970s, 80s, and part of the 90s. If it wasn’t for the budding conservative blogoshere during the late 1990s, Clinton never would have been impeached.

• 134 Darthmeister // Sep 1, 2006 at 11:34 am

  Sorry, Godfrey, that’s #128…Amen!

• 135 Ghoti // Sep 1, 2006 at 12:07 pm

  I visit here every day, but seldom post comments. The last time I posted was after our home was struck by a tornado on April 4, 2006. I’ve cleared 40 of more than 100 downed oak trees on my property, replaced the roof and missing wall, repaired the gaping hole in the kitchen, and replaced everything in the water-damaged, black-molded kitchen, including walls, cabinets and appliances.

  The insurance settlement was sparse, and we’ve used all the money we had in savings – but I’m proud to have done all the repair myself, with no help from the government. If I had waited for FEMA, as did some of our neighbors, we would be living in a trailer (the only thing FEMA has provided the neighbors in these 5 months), still waiting.

  My philosophy from the beginning has been that the government is resonsible for my security, not my home and property. I have no pity for the New Orleans residents who complain about remaining debris and personal property damage.

• 136 Maggie // Sep 1, 2006 at 12:37 pm

  Good Morning all!

  Marge….try white vinegar or vanilla and keep you fingers out of your eyes.lol

  Shelly……..Hope you are safe high and dry.The storm raged thru the night and calmed about 11am.We lost power for about 5 hours.Now I am trying to heal my caffein’ deprived headache by downing 2 cups in rapid fire succession.(lock and load)

  Also Earnie caused a minor leak(hoping) in the roof that dripped into the dogs water dish.Thankfully,I didn’t need to use the Mae West.

  boberin is in OBX(outer banks)so I’m sure he got the brunt of the storm.He will still have more good days at Nags Head.Knowing I shouldn’t say this,I kinda miss him.
  Mig’s city of Wilmington was also hit hard.

• 137 Maggie // Sep 1, 2006 at 12:53 pm

  Ghoti……glad you posted and welcome.
  Where do you live? Sure am sorry to hear about your difficulties but proud of you for taking charge and getting the job done.

• 138 Maggie // Sep 1, 2006 at 1:00 pm

  Darth,
  Have you heard or read anything more about the Afghan man who ran over 15 people with his SUV?The news has been silent since the initial report.

• 139 leslieslee // Sep 1, 2006 at 1:04 pm

  My parents lost their house in Katrina. They live in Bay St. Louis, MS. Since they had water during Hurricane Camille, they have been paying flood insurance for the last 37 years. They must have had the only non-evil insurance company, because they were paid in full within 3 months of the storm. Although they are still in a FEMA trailer, they have started rebuilding their home, about 9 feet higher, on the same lot. They hope to be in it by Thanksgiving. They are grateful to the millions of Americans who helped. Most Mississippians understand the government’s help is meant to be temporary.

• 140 Darthmeister // Sep 1, 2006 at 1:09 pm

  Jobless Rate Dips in August… 4.7%
  So what if it’s lower than during the Clinton Administration, it’s only low paying jobs being generated

  Washington Post: It’s Unfortunate So Many People Took Joe Wilson Seriously
  …like us. Of course the Bush Administration still bears some responsibility for Dick Armitage leaking Plame’s name even though he was opposed to the Iraq War, too.

  Hurricane John Strengthens; Nears Mexican resorts in Baja…
  It’s Bush’s fault because he didn’t embrace the Kyoto Accord.

  WIRE: Thrill Is Gone at MTV Awards…
  Little wonder since it turned into a lib DemDonk media event headed by none other than Al Bore.

• 141 Ghoti // Sep 1, 2006 at 1:12 pm

  The offering of prayers from Scrappleface posters was much appreciated during the tornado incident, but I’m now asking for your prayers in a more heart-rendering situation.

  My Marine nephew, Zachary, is in his 2nd tour of Iraq – first in Fallujah, now in Ramadi, and coming home in October. He was married in Chickamauga, Georgia 3 days before shipping out for Ramadi, with several of his platoon members in the wedding party. The wedding photos are tremendous, with Zachary and his fellow Marines all decked out in their uniforms.

  One of the guys, Tyler Warndorf, was killed this week in Ramadi, Anbar province. Two Iraqis appeared to be arguing just outside their post, and Tyler went over to ask them to break it up and move on. One had an IED strapped to his stomach, the other had an IED in a paper bag, and they both blew themselves up, killing themselves and Tyler. Zachary was hospitalized for shock after failing in his efforts at CPR on Tyler.

  In a related event, a week earlier Zachary’s platoon rounded up several guys who were seen planting IEDs. One of the Iraqis escaped as they were leaving the house with the detainees, and they fired a shot at him as he rounded the corner of the house, but did not pursue him to avoid losing any of the others they had in custody.

  As platoon leader, Zachary failed to include the escape incident in his report, to protect one of his men who failed to prevent the escape. The escapee had been previously detained for planting IEDs, and was found elsewhere in the neighborhood the next day, his neck slit and shot with an AK-47. His uncle is a member of the local parlaiment, and he pushed the Marines to “punish somebody” for his nephew’s death.

  Zachary has been busted down to basic level, isolated from his platoon, not allowed to re-enlist, and faces a court-martial when he returns to Camp Leguene next month. Our guys don’t carry AK-47s, and the entire platoon stayed together as they escourted the other detainees back to their post. No one in the platoon, including Zachary, is under no suspicion in the IED-planter’s death, but is facing severe punishment (up to 6 months in the brig) for filing an incomplete report, which he immediately admitted.

  I am concerned 1) that the Marines are being dangerously handicapped in their efforts against an enemy who follows no rules, 2) that they are having to follow politically-correct rules to appease the anti-war [read anti-Bush] crowd (as we had to do during my 1968-72 service), and 3) that the enthusiasm of our troops for the mission is waning as politics negatively affect their ability to perform.

  I find myself blaming Democrats (most of whom voted for the Iraq War) for many of the deaths and other negative events now occurring. May God continue to bless the United States of America.

• 142 Darthmeister // Sep 1, 2006 at 1:12 pm

  Maggie … no.

  Media blackout until they and “government officials” can spin the story, I guess

• 143 JamesonLewis3rd // Sep 1, 2006 at 1:21 pm

  
  Nagin cracks me up.

  He’s up in Manhattan today trying to round up investors.

• 144 tomg // Sep 1, 2006 at 1:59 pm

  WordPress database error: [Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket '/tmp/mysql.sock' (2)]
  SELECT meta_value FROM wp_postmeta WHERE post_id = ‘2320′ AND meta_key = ‘podPress_podcastEnhancedAudio’

• 145 tomg // Sep 1, 2006 at 2:02 pm

  Yikes – Scrapplers are back! – I thought I’d lost all of you.

• 146 GnuCarSmell // Sep 1, 2006 at 2:26 pm

  This link gives a vivid portrait of the stuck-on-stupid entitlement mentality among New Orleans’ poor.

  http://americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5601&search=katrina

• 147 Ghoti // Sep 1, 2006 at 2:56 pm

  Thanks, Maggie. I live in western Kentucky, 25 miles north of Fort Campbell.

• 148 R.A.M. // Sep 1, 2006 at 2:58 pm

  Ghoti: I have said prayers for Zachary, as I hope all here will do!

  God bless him and all our brave troops!

• 149 R.A.M. // Sep 1, 2006 at 3:32 pm

  GnuCarSmell: re: #144, What an articulate piece!!!

  To some of the leftist hypocrites, I am sure they would deride this persons Christianity.

  To me, he says all the right things, i.e. doing his work for God, and that the ingratitude shown will NOT stop his helping others!

  I believe GOD does NOT want us being fools, and if we are shown ingratitude, or even worse as he says, indifference to our help, it is time to find others that NEED help that are willing to help themselves, that also do NOT feel as if it is OWED to them!

  I wonder how many, “Tax the rich and give to the poor libs”, are there in N.O. right now helping out?

  As much as you hear about Habitat for Humanity and Jimmah, I really have never seen him in a video “breaking a sweat”! It is always stills, much as the “foreman” on the job.

  Does Jimmah actually STAY after the photo op?

  I don’t know, just asking.

  I do know that MOST volunteers to help disaster victims come from the RIGHT side of the political spectrum, yet the very people they help, almost ALWAYS, before AND after support the libs/dimocrats.

  So much for gratitude.

• 150 GnuCarSmell // Sep 1, 2006 at 3:55 pm

  “Does Jimmah actually stay after the photo op?”

  RAM – Are you referring to Jimmy Carter, ex-Goobernator of Georgia?

• 151 JamesonLewis3rd // Sep 1, 2006 at 6:26 pm

  I’ll sure sleep better tonight knowing that Syria has promised Kofi to keep an eye on Lebanon’s border.

• 152 Libby Gone // Sep 1, 2006 at 6:39 pm

  Hey isn’t the term “Nagin” racist and inappropriate?
  Opps sorry it is a synonym for “Idiot” my bad.

• 153 Libby Gone // Sep 1, 2006 at 6:41 pm

  Thanks Scott,sir for letting me back into the “party” LOL.

• 154 Godfrey // Sep 1, 2006 at 6:43 pm

  GnuCarSmell re: #144

  An engrossing article. It is perhaps one of life’s more perplexing paradoxes that altruistic acts intended to benefit the poor often just help to keep them poor.

  What the author misses, of course, is that the “noble poor” never existed in the first place. There are of course “poor” people who happen to be “noble”, but the two are hardly homologous.

  Seems to me there is a much stronger link between poverty and apathy than between poverty and nobility. But of course that leaves the literary romantic with very little to idealize.

  The “lazy poor” just doesn’t have the same ring to it.

• 155 Godfrey // Sep 1, 2006 at 6:50 pm

  Libby re: #150: Hey isn’t the term “Nagin” racist and inappropriate?

  Technically, yes, but why niggle over trifles?

• 156 Libby Gone // Sep 1, 2006 at 7:10 pm

  Or renege over truffles?

• 157 Libby Gone // Sep 1, 2006 at 7:12 pm

  renege gan
  nyuk nyuk nyuk.

• 158 Darthmeister // Sep 1, 2006 at 8:08 pm

  Now, Godfrey, don’t act so niggardly with respect to your charity concerning those who re-elected Ray Nagin. They are Democrats after all.

• 159 Darthmeister // Sep 1, 2006 at 8:17 pm

  I did appreciate the title of the piece, “Speaking Truth to Paupers.”

  Of course the liberal humanists continue to pander to the poor, hoping to persuade them to their allegiance by enslaving them with government handouts in the name of compassion, thus buying a constituent for life. This invariably has a corrosive effect on democratic institutions, particularly constitutional democracies.

  “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising them the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over a louse fiscal responsibility, always followed by a dictatorship. The average of the world’s great civilizations before they decline has been 200 years. These nations have progressed in this sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith; from spiritual faith to great courage; from courage to liberty; from liberty to abundance; from abundance to selfishness; from selfishness to complacency; from complacency to apathy; from apathy to dependency; from dependency back again to bondage.” –Alexander Tyler, in his 1770 book, “Cycle of Democracy”

  We’re at the apathy to dependency stage. Sobering.

• 160 Darthmeister // Sep 1, 2006 at 8:19 pm

  Sorry, that’s “loose” not “louse” …. though still apropos.

• 161 Godfrey // Sep 1, 2006 at 8:41 pm

  Libby: Why, I oughta moidalize ya.

  Hank: I wonder if their choice to re-elect Nagin wasn’t colored by other considerations.

  Speaking of “niggardly”, how dare you use a word which bares a hazy phonetic resemblance to a racial epithet.

  That can cause grave consternation in some parts.

• 162 Godfrey // Sep 1, 2006 at 8:44 pm

  Hank: re #157: one of my favorite quotes. You’re starting to sound like a libertarian…

• 163 JamesonLewis3rd // Sep 1, 2006 at 9:03 pm

  I don’t know what to say about this:

  http://americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5815

  It’s a sad, sad time we live in.

• 164 prettyold // Sep 1, 2006 at 10:09 pm

  Gosh ,you guys are really running the puns and I hate to go off topic and back a ways,but I just have to commiserate with MargeinMI,about her hands . I did that once with some little yellow-green peppers ,that didn’t taste hot. I hadn’t finished the relish ,when my hands started to burn . I tried vinegar, sodapaste, milk,lotion and ended the afternoon standing with cold water running over them. I’m so glad I didn’t touch anything else on my body.
  Later the skin all peeled off my hands ,just like a burn from fire.

• 165 prettyold // Sep 1, 2006 at 10:21 pm

  Oh, dear ,Ghoti, I am adding Zachary ,your family,and his Military buddies to my prayer list .I can hardly believe our own Military Officers are getting so hung up on minor things. next I suppose they will court martial our Troops for a parking ticket. God bless Zachary and Thank God we have young men like him to protect all of us.
  Wisconsin had a couple of tornadoes last summer and there wasn’t any FEMA money for the folks who lost their homes.
  And did you see, Broward Co. Fla, is demanding money to replace what they spent preparing for Ernesto?

• 166 conserve-a-tip // Sep 1, 2006 at 10:42 pm

  Ghoti, a few weeks ago I received an email from a friend asking me to be a part of a movement, taking place all across the nation, to pray for our country. At 8:00 pm CST, everyone stops to pray or at least one minute for the safety of the United States, our troops, our
  citizens, and for a return to a Godly nation. I am adding your nephew and his comrades into that prayer and I am inviting anyone else to participate in this united daily prayer.

  And I live in outside of Oklahoma City where the May 3rd tornado of fame raged for over 60 miles and left a path of devastation that was simply hard to fathom. I am so touched at your efforts and your tenacity and am proud that you have such guts and such faith. We here in Okie country can sure sympathize. Keep up the good work.

• 167 Darthmeister // Sep 1, 2006 at 10:46 pm

  For what its worth, Godfrey, when I take online political surveys I test out as a libertarian conservative. So when liberals (who lie to themselves about being “moderate”) rail against me as some “reich-wing KKKonservative” it tells me how extremely left-wing they really are on the political spectrum.

  But that’s libertarian with a little “el”, not Libertarian. You know what they say about big “el” Libertarians, they’re dope smoking Republicans. Of course there are other ideological differences.

  Actually I find the Constitution Party to be closest to my political views. However, come election time, there isn’t a snowball’s chance that any of its candidates will get elected so I throw in with the Republicans about 95% of the time. I’ve voted for a few Democrats in my years, including, to my shame, Jimmah Carter. I’ve also voted for Libertarian and Independent Party candidates in the various states that I’ve lived in the last thirty-three years.

  Actually, I’m pretty mainstream and would have little problem living under the stricter social codes and culture present during America’s colonial period. A Puritan lifestyle would be a little too straight-laced for me, but I could survive it without too much hypocrisy. I doubt there are any liberals that can make such claims since they would probably be tarred and feathered in rather short order for their self-aggrandizing narcissism and juvenile attitudes toward legitimate authority.

  Liberalism is a social disease that is only made possible by the existence of an increasing collectivist government and the wealth of others to be plucked and redistributed by that government through confiscatory taxation.

• 168 Effeminem // Sep 1, 2006 at 11:04 pm

  OOOOOh, how about that Libertarian running for DeLay’s seat? He actually has a tiny chance of winning, I heard.

  Personally I may not be voting this time around, but my house rep supported Shadegg for majority leader like I asked him too, sooo I feel obligated.

  I guess gratitude is the disease of dogs, but still.

• 169 Effeminem // Sep 1, 2006 at 11:10 pm

  I apologize for the last post; I was under the influence of the girl at the pizza place. Rest assured that no further meaningful statements or incorrect homophones will emanate from my cogitations. Nor will there be any more monkeying around.

• 170 Jack // Sep 2, 2006 at 1:30 am

  Mr. Ott, your insensitivity goes beyond words. You have lost all sense of compassion for your fellow Man. You have no heart whatsoever. By having Nancy Pelosi making good Republican sense for a change, you have deprived me of all of my conservative self-esteem. I think I will apply for a government grant.

• 171 Godfrey // Sep 2, 2006 at 3:09 am

  Hank: re #165: “when I take online political surveys I test out as a libertarian conservative.”

  Interesting… I test out as a conservative libertarian.

  I’m not a member of the Libertarian party, although it’s closest ideologically to where I stand. There were some changes at the recent convention that may prove interesting, though; like actually trimming down the platform to enable the party to win elections (which means taking out the drug legalization and open borders stuff, etc.). In the future it may morph into a workable party, but for moment it’s just a bit silly. I do vote for their minor candidates, though.

  I’m familiar with the Constitution Party. There’s a lot to like, particularly the emphasis on small government. But the party also has a theocratic bent with which I’m not thrilled; and not just because I’m an atheist. I think secular government is the best–perhaps the only–way to safeguard people’s religious freedom. Although I can see why Christians might like the general idea of a more Christian government, I think they’d soon find that mixing the two can be disastrous. Careful what you ask for.

  I’m not sure I agree with you on the collectivism=liberalism thing. I wonder instead if “liberalism” might not be an inevitable result of prosperity. Prosperity breeds softness and it’s difficult to value hard work if you’ve never actually had to do any.

  Technically, of course, “true, classical liberalism” and “collectivism” are polar opposites. But of course you’re referring to “new liberalism”, which is indeed a cancer of the most pernicious sort.

  By every measurement at the time our forefathers were the liberals of their day. It’s funny and a little sad that “liberalism” has come to mean a huge, intrusive welfare state.

  It used to mean “freedom”.

• 172 Godfrey // Sep 2, 2006 at 3:16 am

  Effeminem re: #166 “I guess gratitude is the disease of dogs…”

  Ah, yes. A quote from the greatest collectivist of them all.

  And look how that turned out.

  As for the Texas Libertarian, I might just donate.

• 173 Darthmeister // Sep 2, 2006 at 4:24 am

  The liberalism of the American founders was thus:

  1) our rights are a gift from God, not from the state. What the state gives the state can take away.

  2) man had the right to private property

  3) the best kind of government is the least intrusive government

  4) the traditional family is the basic unit of government and is the basis of all civil society and civil governments

  5) man ALWAYS retains the inviolable right to self-defense. The Second Amendment was and is the greatest exposition of that right.

  6) civil governments should impede the free flow of commerce as little as possible.

  7) civil governments should not impede the free movements of its law-abiding citizenry.

  community, not communism, is the most compassionate means to address poverty.

  There’s more but that’s all I can think of right now.

  Clearly, what we call “liberalism” today is anything but. In actuality the modern liberal humanist socialist is a collectivist at heart, believing that if they are in control of government it would be a benign nanny to its citizenry. Also, secular liberals today easily confuse moral license for liberty, hence they consider themselves “liberal”.

• 174 onlineanalyst // Sep 2, 2006 at 5:52 am

  JohnHuang2 has an hilarious commentary about the Dems putting all of their hopes in Ernesto’s reprise of Katrina here.

  A sampling?
  “Over the weekend, when Ernesto was projected to hit Louisiana, before it was projected to hit Mississippi, which was before it was projected to hit Alabama, just before it was projected to hit southern Florida, Democrats seized on a story published in New Orleans’ Times-Picayune entitled, Engineers: Levees might not hold in another big storm this year, which cited the head of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers conceding that despite an all-out effort to fix the levee system, it still wasn’t clear whether the system could handle another of Rove’s Category 3 hurricanes.

  “Instantly, the press was filled with deja vu stories speculating about breached levees, bodies stacking up at the Superdome, flooded streets teeming with hungry Wal-Mart executives dressed up as fierce alligators devouring gays and union workers — all of this happening “again” just 2 months before the elections”

  Gee whiz, the Dems’ “winning” template of causes changes faster than a Cat-5 wind…

• 175 onlineanalyst // Sep 2, 2006 at 6:29 am

  Robert Tracinsky writes about the unlearned lesson of Katrina. But then, those who understand personal responsibility know recognized the problem all along, in spite of the media’s hysterical spin.

• 176 onlineanalyst // Sep 2, 2006 at 6:31 am

  Delete the “know” in that prior clumsy sentence. (Reminder to self: proofread.)

• 177 Ms RightWing, Ink // Sep 2, 2006 at 8:20 am

  onlineanalyst

  Not to worry. In the last week I have created more grammatical errors than a mini-van full of first graders. Surely it must be the winds of liberal education being blown north by Ernesto

  And not to forget a good morning to all. It is a rainy Saturday here in Bunkerville and sigh, it is my first day on the challenge golf course after a summer of hitting balls on the range.

• 178 Maggie // Sep 2, 2006 at 8:54 am

  Onlineanalyst,
  You R certenley Korect,one must pufweed,pufweed.
  pufweed.
  BTW…..Good Morming everybody.

• 179 onlineanalyst // Sep 2, 2006 at 9:05 am

  Good morning, glories!
  Insomnia had me wandering all over the blogosphere earlier today.

  After nearly a week of overcast skies, Ernesto has finally been dumping the threatened rain here, too. LOL though, the AOL local weather forecast features not one day of rainy icons.

  Take your big golf umbrella, MsRW, Ink. If memory serves, the ball plays slowly on saturated courses. Plunk.

• 180 RedPepper // Sep 2, 2006 at 10:21 am

  Morning, all. Ms RW, is your computer any better? MargeinMI, hope your eye is feeling better! Ouch!

• 181 Libby Gone // Sep 2, 2006 at 10:34 am

  Hey all,
  Labor Day weekend and I’m laboring, Just don’t tell my Boss I’m posting on Scrappleface!

• 182 Godfrey // Sep 2, 2006 at 10:39 am

  Hank: regarding the “cause” of modern social liberalism, while reading Wikipedia I found this interesting passage. I found it pertinent.

  The Industrial Revolution greatly increased material wealth, but made social problems more visible, such as pollution, child labor, and overcrowding in the cities. Material and scientific progress led to greater longevity and a reduced mortality rate. The population increased dramatically resulting in an increased supply of labor relative to capital, which led to declining wages. Many laissez-faire economists felt that these problems of industrial society would correct themselves without government action.

  In the 19th century, the voting franchise in most democracies was extended, and these newly enfranchised citizens often voted in favor of government intervention into the economy. Rising literacy rates and the spread of knowledge led to social activism in a variety of forms. Those calling themselves liberals instigated laws against child labor and laws requiring minimum standards of worker safety. The laissez faire economic liberals considered such measures to be an unjust imposition upon liberty, as well as a hindrance to economic development. This 19th century social liberalism is considered as the first significant split of modern liberalism from “classical liberalism.” In 1911, L. T. Hobhouse published Liberalism, which summarized what social liberals believe is a “new liberalism,” including qualified acceptance of government intervention in the economy, and the collective right to equality in dealings, what he called “just consent”. So different from classical liberalism did Hayek see Hobhouse’s book that he commented that it would have been more accurately titled Socialism instead.[28] (Hobhouse called his beliefs “liberal socialism”.)

  In some European countries the term “liberalism” refers mostly to what is called “classical liberalism” in the United States, i.e., European “liberalism” is most often in favor of a free market-economy and a more restricted government.

  That last paragraph covers something I’ve noticed myself. I have many Swedish friends and when I describe my political philosophy to them they say “oh…you’re a liberal.” Initially I bucked this label until I realized that it means something completely different to them.

  BTW for an incredibly astute defense of such “liberalism” I recommend “In Defense of Global Capitalism” by Johan Norberg. You of all people would enjoy this book.

• 183 MargeinMI // Sep 2, 2006 at 11:24 am

  Good morning Scrapplefriends!

  Ms. RW, Aloe! Duh! I knew you would know. :>)

  To update: Finger pain subsided, until peeling garlic. Pain then intensified dramatically! It felt like I had been stung several times in the fingertips of my left hand. Ow ow ow ow ow ow. I tried lemon juice, milk, calamine lotion, and baking soda. Finally, out of desperation for distraction, I sat down to pay the monthly bills (late as usual). Was it the distracting pain of writing all those checks, or the handling of paper? Whichever, relief finally came. Whew! Gloves for SURE next time!

  Progress so far: 16 pints of mild salsa, 12 pints plus 4 quarts of hot salsa, and 13 quarts of stewed tomatoes/onion/green pepper mix. Today: bread and butter pickles! Yum! Next: spaghetti sauce (from a receipe from Anne’s ex-grandmother-in-law from the old country). Rounding up the Roma’s……

• 184 Libby Gone // Sep 2, 2006 at 12:08 pm

  hey Marge!!!!
  Libby likes salsa

• 185 Beerme // Sep 2, 2006 at 3:57 pm

  “I’m so glad I didn’t touch anything else on my body.
  Later the skin all peeled off my hands ,just like a burn from fire.

  Comment by prettyold — September 1, 2006 @ 10:09 pm ”

  I am only slightly bothered by most capsaicin (the oil in peppers that makes them “hot”), but put it in the eyes or another sensitive skin part and it dooo burn!

  I remember a couple of years ago, when I was doing some training for my Emergency Response Team. We were in a field with our gas masks, and the trainers touched off a bunch of old ordnance-OC/CS gas-in the middle of the field. The troops would march into the cloud and don their masks, then macrh out. This was to ensure you could calmly put on the mask in a stressful environment and that the mask was properly fitted to ensure you could breathe without inhaling gas.

  After the exercise, we took a break. I needed to use the bathroom, but we were in the field so I went into the bush and took a leak. A few moments later, I remembered the “C” in “OC” stood for capsicum…

• 186 Darthmeister // Sep 2, 2006 at 4:22 pm

  Godfrey, I can’t see much I disagree with. American liberals today don’t deserve the label “liberal”. The believe that their fellow man has the right, nay, the duty to enslave himself to every vice and sin and become the ward of the state. American liberalism panders to the lowest common denominator, it strips their fellow man of any meaningful dignity based personal discipline and accomplishments, and defines equality by how much suffering can be spread equally among the citizenry by government decree despite ones best efforts to better themselves and their station in life. Modern American liberalism is a mental disease, a pathology of the most embarassing proportions which will destroy this country from within if people infected with this disease are able to regain the reigns of power.

• 187 Ghoti // Sep 2, 2006 at 5:32 pm

  prettyold and conserve-a-tip, thanks for your prayers – nothing is of greater importance right now.

  Zachary’s own faith is evident, even physically, although we’ve worried during both tours of the consequences if he was ever captured over there. Inside his flak jacket is embroidered the 23rd Psalm, and on the lining of his helmet the text of John 3:16. With troops and Christianity both under constant attack, from both within and without, he thought it appropriate to combine the two into a single target. With his experience in Haiti right out of high school, then tours in Fallujah and Ramadi, and now the disappointment in the actions of his beloved USMC, the 20-year-old has already had a lifetime of experiences.

  prettyold, the military officers are attempting to appease the so-called anti-war crowd, with our troops suffering the consequences of such appeasement. Nothing new there. Appropriately, I got word of his problems from my sister (Zach’s mom) while at a reunion of my USAF squadron in Virginia last weekend.

• 188 Ghoti // Sep 2, 2006 at 5:38 pm

  My faith is strengthened by Scott Ott and the great posters on this site every day. I do most of my posting on the most liberal blog sites, under the username TeacherVet, then turn to ScrappleFace for reassurance that there are still decent people who can debate without vulgarity and personal character attacks. My thanks, and prayers, to all of you.

• 189 Godfrey // Sep 2, 2006 at 8:15 pm

  Beerme! Ouch!

  Hank re: #186 “Modern American liberalism is a mental disease…”

  I don’t know that I’d go that far, man!

  There are some good people out there who are social liberals. Nice people who love their kids and really care about their fellow man. The core of the problem is not that they’re insane but that they happen to think the state is better equipped to solve a person’s problems than that individual is.

  I tend to take the position that liberals are just fellow Americans who need to be disabused of their idiotic notions.

• 190 Darthmeister // Sep 2, 2006 at 9:35 pm

  I would go that far. When modern liberals call it “compassion” when people become the wards of the state, that’s pretty twisted. Also, their attempts to “normalize” high-risk lifestyles like homosexuality, agitating to legalize pschotropic drugs, and embracing the perverted concept of “homosexual marriage”, these people are extremists.

  I make distinctions between old school liberals like FDR, Truman, John F. Kennedy and the whack jobs that pass for liberals today. As we’re fond of noting here, the fact that JFK probably couldn’t even be nominated by the Democratic Party today because he would be far “too conservative” and too much a “warmonger”, demonstrates to the objective observer how radical the liberal wing of the Demoncrap Party has become. I think there is little questions JFK would definitely be to the right of Joe Lieberman and Zell Miller, and look at how the DemDonks are treating Lieberman today.

  But yes, there are probably “liberal” Democrats who may espouse some of the neo-lib talking points. But what’s interesting is that they typically live their lives as conservatives … you know, raising a traditional family as husband and wife, they seek jobs that pay maximum dollars, have multiple vehicles at their disposal, shop at Wal-Mart or other stores where they get the most bang for their bucks, go to church or synagogue, own firearms, are proud if their children serve in the military of the evil military industrial complex, etc.

• 191 Wrymouth // Sep 2, 2006 at 9:37 pm

  So happy to see that the Kennedy (JF, not Ted) Democrats are making a comeback. Maybe my dad can go back to being a Democrat!

• 192 myword // Sep 3, 2006 at 1:04 am

  I have been following this thread with interest and am
  enjoying the spirited discussion with each explaining their beliefs with clarity.

  It brought to mind a part in the French economist Frederic Bastiat’s treatise
  “The Law”. Most of his writings – all offering a strong defense of liberty and the free market – were in the years immediately preceding and shortly after the Revolution of 1848, when France was falling into the mire of socialism.

  While his arguments fell on the mostly deaf ears of his countrymen, his work inspired countless economists, political theorists and policy advocates the world over. The following is his position on the government and welfare.

  The Law and Charity

  You say: “there are persons who have no money,” and you turn to the law. But the law is not a breast that fills itself with milk. Nor are the lacteal veins of the law supplied with milk from a source outside the society. Nothing can enter the public treasury for the benefit of one citizen or one class unless other citizens and other classes have been forced to send it in. If every person draws from the treasury the amount that he has put in it, it is true that the law then plunders nobody. But this procedure does nothing for the persons who have no money. It does not promote equality of income. The law can be an instrument of equalization only as it takes from some persons and gives to other persons. When the law does this, it is an instrument of plunder.

  With this in mind, examine the protective tariffs, subsidies, guaranteed profits, guaranteed jobs, relief and welfare schemes, public education, progressive taxation, free credit and public works. You will find that they are always based on legal plunder, organized injustice.

  A portion of our citizens are plundered with the proceeds going to another group of citizens.

  The result. The second group has been robbed of initiative, and denied the self-esteem engendered by accomplishment. The search for self-esteem manifests itself in a myriad of
  destructive actions, i.e., joining a gang, defending turf, the biggest and baddest bling. Multi-generational welfare has morphed into the sense of entitlement. The sense of entitlement
  embitters those who have been plundered in the first place. What hath our altruism wrought? Just asking.

• 193 myword // Sep 3, 2006 at 1:11 am

  I don’t know why the quote didn’t show up in italics, but Bastiat’s quote ends with “organized injustice”. The rest are my thoughts.

  Well, it’s late and my attention is being diverted by a Pink Floyd concert on PBS.

  See you in the a.m.

• 194 Ms RightWing, Ink // Sep 3, 2006 at 8:34 am

  morning all

• 195 Ms RightWing, Ink // Sep 3, 2006 at 8:35 am

  hmmm, I know I said good morning

• 196 onlineanalyst // Sep 3, 2006 at 10:15 am

  Good morning, MsRW,Ink: How was the golf game?

  Oddball sleeping habits have awakened me in the early hours, so with a church service for the soul and a quick stop at the grocery store afterward for provisions for the body, I am ready to check in on what’s happening.

  Did anyone see the Santorum/Casey debate on Meet the (De)pressed? I hope that Santorum made his points resoundingly.

  Myword: The quotation you cited and the points you made afterward should be emblazoned on every free citizen in this country (that’s all of us).

  And speaking of the French: I am reading an art history book (The Judgment of Paris) about the shift of artistic style to Impressionism. The book interweaves elements of the country’s history with what was happening in the art world. It has struck me that French expansionism/colonialism had a heavy imprint negatively on a lot of the world’s hot spots in later years: Algeria, Indochina, Mexico, and Syria.

• 197 onlineanalyst // Sep 3, 2006 at 10:25 am

  Here is a refreshing commenatary (linked from freerepublic) by a young writer who recognizes that freedom isn’t free.

• 198 onlineanalyst // Sep 3, 2006 at 10:26 am

  Um, Make that “commentary”.

• 199 JamesonLewis3rd // Sep 3, 2006 at 10:40 am

  RE: #193~~

  As a life-long art fan (Impressionism and Neo-Impressionism in particular), I will be looking for Ross King’s book, which sounds quite good, at the local library.

  My favorite Time-Machine-Fantasy has me hanging out in the Montmartre of the latter half of the 19th century.

  Thanks!
  

• 200 onlineanalyst // Sep 3, 2006 at 10:50 am

  I heard Ross King speak in a symposium at our local library (in the middle of a not-so-very-large metropolis) and later that same week at a librarians’ banquet this past spring. What a thrill to have him autograph my copy of the book at the latter event! As erudite as he is, he is self-effacing and has a sly sense of humor.

  As an extra note about King, he indicated (to his admitted shame) that he has ensnared in giving art tours related to venues in The DaVinci Code. His educated opinion is that Dan Brown’s “research” is largely buncomb.

• 201 onlineanalyst // Sep 3, 2006 at 10:51 am

  “become ensnared”
  I really should think (and proofread) before I post. (When/where have I said this before???)

• 202 JamesonLewis3rd // Sep 3, 2006 at 11:03 am

  I am SO SICK of hearing Republicans “have no plan”!!!!! Aargh!

  On a lighter note:

  Go, Agassi!

• 203 Ms RightWing, Ink // Sep 3, 2006 at 11:46 am

  onlineanalyst

  In a word–rained out. Tiger Woods has no fear of this lady being the world’s greatest golfer. Rats, it has either been to hot or to wet all summer, but with cooler weather setting in I hope to make it onto the course.

  I am getting rather good with the driver, burried a few in the woods at the end of the range but my putting, umm, not so good.

  Now that I am working with a golf pro my game is better than my pre-MS days. Go figure.

• 204 Ms RightWing, Ink // Sep 3, 2006 at 11:50 am

  Another dog captured in Iraq and hey I thought al-Qaida wasn’t in that country so why are our troops there??????

  http://www.newsnet5.com/news/9783536/detail.html

• 205 Godfrey // Sep 3, 2006 at 2:11 pm

  Hank: re: # 186 & #188:

  I think part of the reason the political landscape has gotten so ugly in recent years is that people on both sides are more willing to use epithetical rhetoric. It is tempting to view people with whom we disagree as somehow less than human, but unfortunately the whole name-calling thing has the very real effect of precluding constructive discussion.

  Of course I realize that Scrappleville is just a forum to vent some irritation among like-minded folks, but I think nurturing that dehumanization mindset is harmful to the overall discourse. What does it accomplish? It’s better to attack the idea than the person who had it. It’s better to be right than angry.

  I’ll take the power of facts and reasoned ideas over fiery rhetoric any day.

• 206 Shelly // Sep 3, 2006 at 2:29 pm

  Good afternoon, all. I have just had the privilege of reading Ann Coulter’s latest book (there were many holds ahead of me at the local library) and I recommend it wholeheartedly. I think it’s the best one she’s written so far. Now it’s time for me to get cooking. Hope everyone has an enjoyable Labor Day! Campaign season has officially opened…

• 207 myword // Sep 3, 2006 at 3:13 pm

  Another gem from Frederic Bastiat I’ll share with you
  under the heading:

  A CONFUSION OF TERMS

  Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, everytime we object to a thing being done by the government, the socialists conclude we object to it being done at all.

  We disapprove of state education. Then the socialists say we are opposed to any education. We object to a state religion. Then the socialists say we want no religion at all. We object to state-enforced equality. Then they say we are against equality. And so on, and so on. It is as if the socialists were to accuse us of not wanting persons to eat because we do not want to state to raise grain.

  Frederic Bastiat 1850 – Translated from French.

  It never changes does it.

  .

• 208 Godfrey // Sep 3, 2006 at 3:41 pm

  “…every time we object to a thing being done by the government, the socialists conclude we object to it being done at all.”

  Great quote!

• 209 onlineanalyst // Sep 3, 2006 at 5:18 pm

  Do we have any media outlets that would dare to show the latest AlQaeda propaganda film, “Code of Silence,” (excerpt linked at http://www.michellemalkin.com) and identify it as Islamofascist propaganda? The clip celebrates Michael Moore as a “courageous truth teller”. The message of this video is one of hate and threats of utter destruction to us, just as is the the “invitation” to submit to Islam posited by that sorry American puppet in his latest propaganda tape. Interestingly, the AlQaeda tape claims that “the truth” about what is happening in Iraq can only be found on CNN and AlJazeera. (What does that tell you?)

  Instead of idiotic clowns marking an X over Cheney’s face in their agenda-driven hate fest, maybe our news services would better inform us by running these AlQaeda propaganda tapes and indicating that they are the disinformation and recruiting handiwork of an enemy that makes no bones about destroying us. Perhaps that reality would galvanize the noodle-spined in our country.

  I am thoroughly disgusted.

• 210 Darthmeister // Sep 3, 2006 at 11:29 pm

  Here’s* a video chronicling the true face of Islamic fundamentalism. While radical leftists claim Bush = Hitler and that America is a fascist state (how many liberal critics have been rounded up and hanged from the end of a rope until dead … three million … one?) their rhetoric has become the sop and apologia of radical Islamists around the world.

  Where’s your outrage at everyday atrocities committed by Islamic regimes you Bush-bashing, America-hating leftists?

  *I’m not particularly enamored with Bahaism but even these committed pacifists recognize the monsters and evil regimes created by radical Muslim fundamentalism. Who thus will stand in the gaps to oppose this evil scourge which is sweeping the world? Certainly not American liberals who are far too busy undermining the war on jihadism.

• 211 Darthmeister // Sep 3, 2006 at 11:48 pm

  I wonder when CAIR and other front groups for Muslim fundamentalist will begin circulating their new pamphlet: Our Responses To Infidels’ Responses To Our Atrocities

  I can’t believe Muslims who have been absolutely silent about the forced conversions of two Fox News employees at gunpoint and have done very little in the way of outing those budding jihadists within their midst (like they don’t really know who potential jihadists may be) actually believe Americans are unfairly targeting them with hate crimes. Cry me a river.

  To show just how tolerant we Americans have truly been, given that we’re a nation of 300 million, if an unprovoked attack directly targeting innocent civilians of an Islamic regime on the scale of our own 9/11 had occurred at the hands of militant infidels, you can bet there would have been thousands upon thousands of Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists and garden variety infidels throughout the land rounded up and unceremoniously disappeared. Hey, it happens to a smaller degree every day in the kangaroo courts of Islamic regimes.

• 212 Darthmeister // Sep 4, 2006 at 12:01 am

  According to NATO, Afghan and NATO forces killed more than 200 Taliban fighters in a major operation in southern Afghanistan.

  How the lamestream media might headline this news: “Over 200 killed in renewed Afghan violence.”

  Also, it’s good to see NATO forces kicking butt. Thank God UN forces weren’t sent in or they would probably be protecting the Taliban under some kind of idiotic “ceasefire”.

• 213 camojack // Sep 4, 2006 at 1:28 am

  Close, but no cigar; they’re actually saying:
  “NATO: 200 Taliban Killed in Offensive”, and
  “More than 200 Taliban die in Afghanistan”

  Those are two different headlines I found for THIS story…

• 214 camojack // Sep 4, 2006 at 1:30 am

  But I certainly would not have been surprised, had they spun it the way you suggested…

• 215 MargeinMI // Sep 4, 2006 at 7:06 am

  (in boberin’s absence)

  Mornin’ Ralph.

  Hank, Excellent letter to the editor in the WSJ! Keep speaking truth to power, brother.

• 216 Ms RightWing, Ink // Sep 4, 2006 at 9:09 am

  Good Socialist Workers Day

  I sure love getting these holidays where the unions think they still have a smidgen of power. Here in my “once upon a time dirty factory town,” the clowns who once ran the jobs out with their pathetic union rules, still don their suits and ties and march down our crumbling Main Street.

  I just wish they showed this much exuberance on Memorial Day with their dime store parade.

• 217 camojack // Sep 4, 2006 at 9:18 am

  Yes, good (Rest from your) Labor Day.

  I’m going to a cookout at my brother’s place upstate; I went to the National Aquarium in Baltimore on Saturday…

• 218 RedPepper // Sep 4, 2006 at 9:36 am

  #208 Darthmeister: Speaking of the WoT, did you see the most recent column by Mark Steyn?

  A brief excerpt: “It doesn’t matter how ‘understandable’ Centanni and Wiig’s actions are to us, what the target audience understands is quite different: that there is nothing we’re willing to die for. And, to the Islamist mind, a society with nothing to die for is already dead.”

• 219 RedPepper // Sep 4, 2006 at 9:39 am

  And, while I’m at it: Happy Labor Day, everyone!

• 220 Shelly // Sep 4, 2006 at 10:02 am

  Camo, been there many times, love the shark exhibit. They have “sleep with the sharks” events where people can pay for a creepy slumber party. If you go downtown again try to eat in Little Italy. There’s a dessert place call Vacarro’s (if memory serves) where you can get a cannoli that’s about the same size as you’re shoe.

• 221 Shelly // Sep 4, 2006 at 10:23 am

  Is this thing on?

• 222 Darthmeister // Sep 4, 2006 at 10:30 am

  RedPepper, such perceived cowardice in the face of Muslim threats can only embolden them even more. But I really believe when all the chips are on the table (exclusive of liberals who still haven’t figured it out in the last five years and probably never will), a significant majority of Americans love their lives and children too much to put up with the encroaching dhimmiehood and Muslim shari’a which is sure to come.

  There has already been a video released calling all Americans to convert to Islam. This was done to satisfy the so-called prophet Muhammad’s instructions of offering a warning to the enemy before launching an attack.

  The forced conversions of the two Fox News employees WITHOUT ONE SINGLE CONDEMNATION FROM MUSLIM RELIGIOUS LEADERS ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD should work as a wake up call to those who still deceive themselves into thinking Islam is a benign religion and moderate Muslims have had their religion hijacked by just a few radicals. I see all of Islam as radical since there has been no outrage from any mainstream Muslim about this egregious, inexcusable violation of the free will of man.

  To paraphrase Sir Winston Churchill:

  We shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our land, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender, and even if, which I do not for a moment believe, this land or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our armies beyond the seas, armed and guarded by nuclear forces, would carry on the struggle, until, in God’s good time, all Americans rise up with all their power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of Eurabia.”

  True Americans will suffer the chains of slavery and tyranny of Islamofascism. Let freedom continue to ring throughout the land, even in our darkest hours.

• 223 Darthmeister // Sep 4, 2006 at 10:31 am

  …True Americans will NOT suffer the chains of slavery…

• 224 Beerme // Sep 4, 2006 at 10:57 am

  There is no chance Americans would allow militant Islam to rule in this country. Europeans are probably more at risk, in this respect, but I doubt that they would allow such an encroachment, either. While, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, it is growing fastest because of it’s political component. (it’s also the fastest growing religion in our nation’s prisons, but that just makes it the fastest growing gang…)

  Frankly, I am more concerned about the rights we are giving away daily in this country, than the possibility of dhimmitude. Houses taken by eminent domain, para-military drug teams breaking down the doors of innocent citizens and sometimes killing them, politicians stealing money and hiding it in their freezers, or saying there isn’t any more fat to cut from another bloated budget, the “theft” of my tax dollars to rebuild a “chocolate city”, and so, so much more…

  Oh, and a Happy Labor Day to all!

• 225 onlineanalyst // Sep 4, 2006 at 11:00 am

  It appears as if Scrappleface was “stuck on stupid” (moi) with my 5:18pm post last night. Round and round with log-out/log-in we went with silence in cyberspace.

  Back to the Katrina topic: Everyone remembers the Heineken-toting man who mustered resolve in the face of rising flood waters. Here is a “celebration” of his entrepreneurship as only Nose on Your Face can describe it.

• 226 JamesonLewis3rd // Sep 4, 2006 at 11:13 am

  I assert that these two men were forced–at gunpoint–to pretend to “convert”.

  In this sense, the last laugh is on the sociopaths who perpetrated this exhibition of their depraved insanity.

  If those murderous imbeciles think they actually “converted” them, they must be quite upset that they don’t, nowadays, bow down (after referring to their compasses) on their magic carpets several times a day.

  LOL I think it’s ludicrous that anyone thinks they “converted.”

  I suppose I could be wrong but…..have they changed their names, for example? Do they to take imaginary baths several times a day no matter where they are? Are they, like, working undercover in the midst of vile infidels? LOL

  By the way, if those men were born-again Christians (and I don’t know that they were), then they are still Christians no matter what they were coerced to say or do. My reasoning on this is based, in part (there are many other premises I could cite), on the story of Peter’s denials (found in all four Gospels).

  As for “nothing we’re willing to die for,” I’m certainly not willing to die for some moronic foolishness.

  If it had been me, the first thing I would have said after those low-life freaks had turned me loose would have been, “Thank You, Lord God Almighty! Thank You, Holy Spirit, for allowing me to survive another day to serve You! Thank You, Jesus, for this Victory!”

  I just think it’s wrong to continually accept as fact that these men are now Muslims when, as far as I know, they are not.

• 227 Godfrey // Sep 4, 2006 at 11:58 am

  OLA re: #221: “So I finished the rest of the human leg I was eating, I turned off the 72-inch plasma tv my friend had just given me, and I sprung into action.”

  Priceless! We are truly a nation of heroes…

• 228 JamesonLewis3rd // Sep 4, 2006 at 12:11 pm

  RE: #220~~

  From my observation: The alleged Muslim converts one finds in prison, do so for the special treatment (food) and special privileges (month-long holidays).

• 229 CaNN :: We started it. // Sep 4, 2006 at 12:18 pm

  [...] ONE YEAR LATER, Some Katrina Victims Still Slow to Respond …. (scrappleface) [...]

• 230 Darthmeister // Sep 4, 2006 at 12:37 pm

  I share your concerns, too, Beerme. Given what a true totalitarian regime might have done when threatened with Islamofascism, what the Bush Administration has done has been pretty benign to date.

  Of course there is always the possibility that a future liberal regime might take the extra half-step and abuse these security measures that have been put in place to deal with a very real Islamofascist threat, and if that happens then the American people would and should rise up. But civil society has always operated in such a fashion so as to curtail some of its freedoms inorder to serve a greater more pressing cause. In America there has never been an absolute right to free speech, hence our example of not having the right to yell fire in a crowded theater.

  I too despise the relatively recent ruling on imminent domain, yet the various states have risen to the occasion by limiting the damage to private land owner within their borders. I particularly despise the unconstitutional abomination of the McCain-Feingold Incumbency Protection Act, otherwise know as campaign finance reform. What an egregious violation of free speech, and political free speech at that which is precisely what the First Amendment protects!

• 231 Darthmeister // Sep 4, 2006 at 12:43 pm

  JL3, of course you are correct. I doubt these two men were serious about their conversion though one seems to have suffered the Stockholm Syndrome.

  It’s just the outrage of having been forced to convert which speaks ill of mainstream Islam. Since there is no spiritual experience of having been saved from ones sin in these faux confessions, it’s only so much mumbo-jumbo. Technically speaking, people don’t convert to Christianity but rather they experience a spiritual conversion by having their sins washed away by the Savior of Mankind, Messiah Jesus. Our allegiance isn’t to a set of dogmas (though biblical doctrine is a very important foundation to Christian faith) but rather to the Savior Himself, not putting away the fellowship with one another since collectively we are the bride to Christ’s bridegroom.

• 232 Godfrey // Sep 4, 2006 at 1:31 pm

  Hank #227: “It’s just the outrage of having been forced to convert which speaks ill of mainstream Islam etc…”

  As opposed to other religions? Obviously you’ve never been invited to a good ol’ fashioned auto de fe…

  It’s not Islam in particular that is to blame, in my opinion. It is people’s willingness to allow others to do their thinking for them.

• 233 JamesonLewis3rd // Sep 4, 2006 at 1:45 pm

  NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!

• 234 Godfrey // Sep 4, 2006 at 2:04 pm

  JL3 #229: “NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!”

  Nobody expected it then. But even if the Inquisition is an extreme example, it’s the same mentality at work. It’s about fanatics saying “the only people of value are those who believe as we believe”.

  It’s about dehumanizing the “other”, which I see here in the West all the time as well.

  Of course, there’s the minor matter of degree…

• 235 RedPepper // Sep 4, 2006 at 2:57 pm

  Goose-stepping Iranians are on the march. Ignoring them will not change their minds. Threatening them will not change their minds. History has a nasty way of repeating itself and it is doing so now in the Middle East.

  Read the whole column here.

• 236 JamesonLewis3rd // Sep 4, 2006 at 3:12 pm

  My reference to the Monty Python skit was for laughs.
  
  It was not meant as a rebuttal of the introduction of the specious argument which seeks a correlation between Biblical Christianity and murderous, fanatic misanthropy–such argumentum ad hominem isn’t really worthy of rebuttal.

• 237 Beerme // Sep 4, 2006 at 3:50 pm

  JL3,

  Thanks for the clarification (though I did expect a bit of fear and surprise…).

• 238 Libby Gone // Sep 4, 2006 at 4:05 pm

  Mahmoud! (new curse word)
  I am Laboring on Labor Day!!!
  But at least I get to read Scrappleface!!!

• 239 Libby Gone // Sep 4, 2006 at 4:06 pm

  Mahmoud it to Hades!!!!

• 240 JamesonLewis3rd // Sep 4, 2006 at 4:13 pm

  Maricopa Sheriff Arpaio has the right idea–round up all these illegals while they’re dumb enough to make themselves available by gathering together in public and announcing themselves. They think we’re a joke–no different from the Muslims. It’s time to wipe the smirk off their faces.

• 241 Darthmeister // Sep 4, 2006 at 4:28 pm

  Godfrey, we are all opposed to forced conversions, even those done in the past with respect to Christendom. But don’t think for a moment that atheist regimes who are hostile to the concept of a transcendant God haven’t done the same thing under the guise of “re-education camps”.

  Even federal courts have recognized atheism as a religion. The 7th Circuit Court of Appeals agreed with Kaufman that his rights had been violated since atheism is indeed a “religion”: “[W]hether atheism is a “religion” for First Amendment purposes is somewhat different question than whether its adherents believe in a supreme being, or attend regular devotional services, or have a sacred Scripture. The Supreme Court has said that a religion, for purposes of the First Amendment, is distinct from a “way of life,” even if that way of life is inspired by philosophical beliefs or other secular concerns. A religion need not be based on a belief in the existence of a supreme being (or beings, for polytheistic faiths), nor must it be a mainstream faith.”

  I see from Google searches that atheists are livid at this decision and have gone to extraordinary lengths of religious apologia to explain how wrong that decision was. Their own dogmatic insistence of the non-religious nature of an irreligious religion smacks a bit of religious fervor to me. Grand ironies and all that.

  Some atheist have already established a number of atheistic churches, such as the Naturalistic Pantheists, Brianism, the church of Reality, and the Fellowship of Reason. There is also a significant atheist presence in Unitarian Universalism religion, and Michael Newdow’s Church of the First Amendment, to name a few.

  It’s what I’ve been saying all along, Godfrey.

• 242 Darthmeister // Sep 4, 2006 at 4:51 pm

  BTW, Godfrey, can we stay current to the 21st Century? What Christian sect is forcing conversions at gunpoint?

  Also, I and my faith takes no responsibility for what the Pope did in the name of …. the Roman Catholic Church four hundred, six hundred, a thousand years ago. These arguments of ad infinitum get rather tedious and can only lead to endless Hatfield/McCoy feuding.

  Do you believe for one minute that Jesus Christ would have approved of whatever evil has been done in his name or that of His Father? However, knowing the history of Mohammed, I can imagine him being pleased with the actions taken by modern jihadists against Jews and infidels.

  Warped people can and do use the most benign and beneficient system of belief to visit any number of inhumanities upon their fellow man. We both know this to be true.

  As a conservative Evangelical Christian I would be more than willing to be judged not only on an individual basis but also as a member of the Evangelical movement. I’m not aware of any Evangelical entity that has advocated forced confessions or engaged in religious pogroms against skeptics and atheist who arrogantly and self-righteously mock our faith. Can you name one Evangelical church or one evangelical that has advocated murdering or forcing conversions upon pagans, atheists, and other religionists? Let’s compare apples with apples here.

• 243 RedPepper // Sep 4, 2006 at 5:12 pm

  #222 JL3: I think it’s ludicrous that anyone thinks they “converted.”

  Well, yes, it’s ludicrous … then again, I haven’t seen either Centanni or Wiig publicly renouncing it … have you? Perhaps they are aware of the fact that, under Sharia, the punishment for apostasy is death …
  and maybe they intend to return to the Mid-East someday … of course, reasonable people wouldn’t dream of executing someone for such a “crime” … but then, “reasonable” people don’t fly planes into buildings …

• 244 onlineanalyst // Sep 4, 2006 at 6:28 pm

  Oddly enough, our old Scrappler regular “kajun” was on my mind lately when I linked to link at some other Scrapplefriends’ blogs to find that he has a new post. I think that kajun would love the morale boost of a visit from some of his cyber friends. We surely miss the wit that he brought to the comments’ section.

• 245 Darthmeister // Sep 4, 2006 at 6:36 pm

  Good point RedPepper. Hadn’t thought of that angle. If Centanni or Wiig renounce Islam, they will be seen as “kufrs”. Punishment for being a Muslim apostate is typically death.

  If these “conversions” were done under duress (and there is ample evidence that they were) I’m particularly dumbfounded that neither gentlemen have displayed a courage to denounce their violation of free will at the hands of radical Islamists. Certainly if they had been forced to “convert” to Christianity in like manner, we would have never heard the end of the media firestorm concerning such a “barbaric and insensitive violation of a person’s will.”

  There is clearly a double-standard within the lamestream media, probably because they fear having their studios being bombed or their journalists beheaded by Islamofascists displeased with the impertinence of media infidels.

• 246 Godfrey // Sep 4, 2006 at 7:45 pm

  Hank # 237 “…we are all opposed to forced conversions, even those done in the past with respect to Christendom.”

  Of course you are. We are all modern, civilized people. I have never been the sort to blame the Inquisition on Christianity; I blame it on the men who perpetrated it.

  But the cause of the Inquisition is the same thing that is causing Islamic extremism and that caused Nazism: the willingness of people to allow an “authority” to tell them that a certain group of people are of less value.

  “…my faith takes no responsibility for what the Pope did…a thousand years ago.”

  Nor should it. That wasn’t my point at all. Again, this has nothing to do with Christianity—it has to do with a mindset. In fact that same sort of dehumanization happened to Christians during their early days at the hands of the Romans, as you well know. Christians were slaughtered merely for being Christians.

  When you said it was the terrorists’ captives’ “having been forced to convert which speaks ill of mainstream Islam” I merely felt obliged to point out that it’s not really Islam that is to blame so much as people’s willingness to abrogate personal responsibility for a collective ideal.

  Nazism, Christianity, atheism, white supremacy: doesn’t matter. As soon as people begin toeing the line they put themselves in danger of being manipulated by unscrupulous leaders.

  Do you believe for one minute that Jesus Christ would have approved of whatever evil has been done in his name or that of His Father? However, knowing the history of Mohammed, I can imagine him being pleased with the actions taken by modern jihadists against Jews and infidels.

  You’re treading thin ice there. There are many passages in the Bible which paint the Hebrew god (whom Christians claim is the same being as Jesus) as having encouraged genocide on a massive scale. On a smaller scale He demanded death for what today would be considered minor infractions. So would He/They have approved of violence done in their name? I think it depends on which passages of the Bible are being read.

  Given that fact—that violence exists in the Bible but that Christians long ago outgrew the notion that they had to conduct such violence (like forcible conversion) to honor their God—why can the same not be expected of Islam?

  It’s hardly surprising that a millennia-old text would advocate brutality; as Christianity shows (and as you have pointed out), that doesn’t mean its adherents necessarily advocate it.

  That radicals use their religion/philosophy to justify their actions is hardly unique, but I think it’s simplistic to blame it on the religion itself. Their book may encourage violence, but it is men who are committing it.

• 247 jovialassassin // Sep 4, 2006 at 9:57 pm

  Amen Godfrey. It’s not the religion as defined millenia ago – it’s where the men leading the religions have taken them. One can hope and pray that the leaders of Islam will someday soon become responsible interpreters of Allah’s wishes and stop the madness, as the Christians have generally managed to pull off. Unfortunately, it appears that that’s a long way off, and in the meantime our job is to pray for them while doing everything we can to make sure they don’t kill us before they turn nice.

• 248 Effeminem // Sep 5, 2006 at 3:36 am

  Well, the philosophical leap we made in the West was “If we force them to convert, then they aren’t really converted, huh?” This is important because the goal is to save the convertee from eternal damnation, so a willing conversion is required.

  If the goal is a political one, like a global caliphate, then the genuineness of a conversion is less important as long as the population obeys Sharia.

  Really, Christianity is relatively more about helping people than about helping God, than Islam and Judaism are.

• 249 tomg // Sep 5, 2006 at 7:30 am

  Re: 246 – Godfrey
  “Their book may encourage violence, but it is men who are committing it.”

  I’m struck by how well this statement translates to gun control. And how the politcal responses are so different.

• 250 Darthmeister // Sep 5, 2006 at 8:00 am

  Godfrey, Christians didn’t “outgrow the notion” but rather Gentile Christians reasonably understand that they aren’t Hebrews or descendants of Hebrews who were ordered to do such things in a far different time than today. You need to put things in their proper historical context and try to understand the nuances of Scripture instead of trying to cast it in the most negative light you can.

  The willingness of people to allow an “authority” to tell them that a certain group of people are of less value.
  Godfrey, when the Jews entered the promised land they were bringing justice, a similar kind of justice nations exercise today with militant, debauched peoples who threaten civilized peoples. Though history has attempted to whitewash these people that the children of Israel defeated, they engaged in thoroughly despicable practices even up to the point where they sacrificed their children or sold them into slavery.

  Because some boneheaded Christians down through history CHOSE to disobey the Gospel of Christ and misapply Scripture which was plainly aimed at the people of Abraham, the Hebrews, and use it to justify their own powergrab is not a case of “an authority” (the Bible) “telling them” anything. This misread it and misapplied it. It’s no fault of the Bible and the Bible isn’t ambiguous about the differences between the New Covenant believer and the Old Covenant believer.

  Now I’ve read the Koran, and my understanding of what it actually says is similar to what virtually every modern Muslim schools of thought teach – the passages dealing with jihad against infidels are historically open ended and apply today to those who are “true believers”. On the other hand I’m not aware of any legitimate Christian scholar today who makes the same claims about the Bible with respect to God commissioning Christians to create a theocracy and win the world to Christ at the point of the sword. With respect to the spread of the Christian message, the New Convenant is emphatic that we war not against the physical world but rather against the powers of spiritual darkness. There is no commission to militarily conquer the world for Jesus, though there have been some popes and some christianized national leaders who have totally misunderstood the Bible on this point. If you misread a computer manual, is that the fault of the manual even though there may be some things difficult to understand?

  Do you understand this historical nuance?

  More Headlines:

  Janet Jackson backs Hillary for White House…
  One intellectual giant backs another … this ought to really help Hillary’s chances

  UPDATE: Some CBS Affiliates Worry Over 9/11 Show…
  Afraid it might cast Clinton Administration’s lack of effort in a bad light

  Annan Questions Iran Holocaust Exhibit…
  He questions it publicly while agreeing privately. Joooooos have played the Holocaust card too much in their favor

• 251 JamesonLewis3rd // Sep 5, 2006 at 9:20 am

  Here’s some inconvenient stuff the haters conveniently forget as they drone their inane“Bush Lied” mantra.

• 252 Ms RightWing, Ink // Sep 5, 2006 at 9:30 am

  Good morning all.

  I spent yesterday a.m. at our annual Labor Day parade. What a show! Now you must remember I live in a 98% Democratic area.

  Our largest city in Ohio, Cleveland, 32 miles to the north has been selected as the poorest city in America. 100% Democrat

  Akron-Canton, my area is just as financially devastated and the young brain-drain is unfortunately very high. 95% Democrat

  Meanwhile a very long parade of every union and Democratic office seeker was out dressed in Red White & Blue, passing out candy, waving and smiling as their dominion falls to ruin. Any more fridge magnets and my chair would rap around the nearest pole.

  After all the hoopla, I turned my chair towards home and passed all the empty crumbling stores. The infastucture has collapsed as 5 huge companies have abandoned their home and moved to cities in the south where unions have not destroyed the jobs all these people once had.

  Yet Nero fiddled all through the parade. Wal-Mart just built a new store over in the next town where the Republicans live and for some reason they were not invited.

  Go figure

• 253 boberin // Sep 5, 2006 at 9:31 am

  Hey gang, how’s things?
  Survived the hurricane on the Outer Banks.

• 254 Shelly // Sep 5, 2006 at 9:47 am

  I’m always amazed at the killing that is attributed to religion, while the MILLIONS of victms of athiests go unspoken of. Would anybody try to argue with a straight face that Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot were Christians? Hitler’s religion was Darwinism. Yes, there was a Spanish Inquisition, but it did not involve the slaughter of millions upon millions of innocent people that atheism has wrought. I’m hardly an apologist for Islam, but all the world’s religions combined have not murdered a fraction of the people that athiests have.

• 255 JamesonLewis3rd // Sep 5, 2006 at 10:09 am

  RE: #254~~

  Indeed.

  Also, it is interesting to note the historical context of the Spanish Inquisition which was, basically, a secular, political operation undertaken to battle the barbaric and murderous campaign of the Muslims (Moors) for world domination which was terrorizing and threatening civilization.

• 256 Darthmeister // Sep 5, 2006 at 10:18 am

  Fading Democratic drumbeats It was a matter time before their lies and ivory tower dreams go up in the blue haze of Cheech and Chong smoke!

  What the DemDonks will have to do is pray that Iraq blows up, Plamegate reignites, and the Bu$Hitler/Cheney/Halliburton/Wal-Mart/Rove regime gets caught red-handed coercing Diebold into pre-rigging their voting machines.

  Former Iranian leader says American troops should stay put in Iraq … an extraordinary admission. I wonder if some Iranians are fearful of the jihadist monster they help create?

• 257 red satellites // Sep 5, 2006 at 10:30 am

  Good morning Scrapplers!

  Crikey…remind me not to go near a stingray.

• 258 Darthmeister // Sep 5, 2006 at 12:23 pm

  #254 Shelly, someone said something similar some years ago. It went something like this: Regimes based on the idea that there is no God relevant to the governance of man often tell their citizens how fortunate they were not to have lived during the Spanish Inquisition where maybe ten thousand people were killed for their “heresies” during a two hundred year period. This number still pales by comparison to the number of innocent civilians these same atheistic regimes have murdered in a matter of months in their own ideological pogroms to quell any resistance to their rule.

  Historical researcher Henry Kamen (who challenges ax grinding secular “historians” who have relied heavily on anecdotal evidence to “spice up” the Spanish Inquisition) notes:
  “Taking into account all the tribunals of Spain up to about 1530, it is unlikely that more than two thousand people were executed for heresy by the Inquisition….for most of its existence that Inquisition was far from being a juggernaut of death either in intention or in capability.”

  It is also notable that the impetus for the Inquisition in Spain came first not from the church, but from secular authorities, the king and queen of Spain who asked for an Inquisition to be conducted against those who posed a threat to civil order. This is in no way an endorsement or an apologia for some of the terrible things done during the Spanish Inquisition … but let’s get some perspective in light of the massive and egregious acts of death committed by thoroughly secular, totalitarian regimes today.

• 259 Godfrey // Sep 5, 2006 at 12:40 pm

  Mornin’ Scrapplers! Just a reminder, red: don’t go near a stingray.

  Tomg #249: a very lucid point. In other words, religion doesn’t kill people; people kill people.

  Effeminem # 248: The philosophical leap we made in the West was “If we force them to convert, then they aren’t really converted, huh?”

  I’m sure that had a lot to do with it. But as JL3 says, forcible conversion has historically served certain political ends. The Koran itself says “there is no compulsion in religion” but also says that the alternative to embracing Allah is, um, subjugation and death. Great swathes of Africa and Asia have undergone compulsory conversion over the centuries.

  And in many places it has stuck.

  Hank: “Christians didn’t “outgrow the notion” but rather Gentile Christians reasonably understand that they aren’t Hebrews or descendants of Hebrews who were ordered to do such things in a far different time than today.”

  You’re more or less just restating my point: believers used to do certain things which now they don’t. But how does someone understand which parts of the Bible are still supposed to be obeyed and which aren’t? Is it really just a matter of being “reasonable” as you say? Actually, it probably is.

  When God says, for instance, that disobedient children are to be killed by their parents (or stoned by the town elders) why does this no longer apply? This rule upheld by Jesus’ teachings as well, so it has nothing to do with the Old Testament vs. New Testament idea.

  The answer is: for obvious reasons, people eventually decided to ignore that particular command. Nowadays slaughtering one’s own kids for being impertinent seems patently absurd to us. No sane Christian would do it regardless of what the Bible says. That constitutes a (welcome, in this case) gap between what the Bible commands and what Christians actually do—i.e. growth. You can wrap it in euphemism or religious phraseology if you like, but the point remains that Christians today generally seek to be gentle and benign whereas history tells us that has not always been the case. A progression has occurred.

  It doesn’t matter whether past brutality constitutes a “misapplication” of Christianity’s holy texts. Many Islamic people say the screaming Wahabis are misapplying the Koran. And the Wahabis say they are following it to the letter—that all others are misapplying it.

  Obviously the same tendencies exist within Islam that historically existed within Christianity or any other religion. I only hope that Islam eventually achieves the same level of beneficence Christianity has.

• 260 myword // Sep 5, 2006 at 1:04 pm

  ARGGGGH!

  There was an article in Sunday’s paper about 11-12 illegal immigrants who were granted survivor funds from the WTC. They were awarded amounts ranging from $750,000 to 2 1/2 million. Their dilemma is they can’t spend the amount in any meaningful way for fear they will draw the attention of the Immigration Service. Most of them worked at the Windows on the World as wait staff, etc. When asked why they didn’t go back to their countries of origin, they just say “they don’t want to”. Their complaint is they can’t get ID’s, drivers licenses, and other privileges of a US citizen.

  Here’s where the story becomes interesting.

  This woman said she and her husband paid a coyote $11,000.00 to smuggle them into the US.

  Fade to news from California this a.m. California has a bill called the “California Dream Act” which has been passed by both houses and is now going to the Governor for his signature. It is a bill to give financial aid to illegals for college. They are already entitled to “in-state” tuition, an entitlement which is not extended to US citizens outside of CA.

  The question is how can these illegal immigrants save or get the money to cross our borders illegally but can’t come up with the money here to pay for their education? Didn’t they come here to earn MORE money than they could in their own countries?. Aren’t they sending billions back to their home countries?

  A politician said this is an “investment” by our country. It’s another example of politicians plundering our money and buying votes to seek or retain power. Where is the TAXPAYER REVOLT! I didn’t invite the illegals and I didn’t adopt them. Why should I support them.
  What is wrong with this picture. I would much prefer to support immigrants than illegals.
  Oh, a fellow from LULAC on the O’Reilly program said referring to them as “illegal immigrants” is bigotry.

  GOOD NEWS. A huge deposit of oil and natural gas may have been discovered in the deep water of the Gulf of Mexico. At least it’s good news until the enviro-nut-cases start filing their lawsuits.

• 261 Godfrey // Sep 5, 2006 at 1:11 pm

  Shelly: “…all the world’s religions combined have not murdered a fraction of the people that atheists have.”

  and Hank “This number still pales by comparison to the number of innocent civilians these same atheistic regimes have murdered…quell any resistance to their rule”

  While I completely agree that

  The above-mentioned “atheist” regimes’ actions had a lot of commonality with the religious purges. In most cases (particularly Pol Pot and Stalin) they simply replaced worship of a deity with worship of the state (or the ideal of the state). The only reason they attempted “enforce” atheism (as if such a thing could be accomplished) was that religion constituted direct competition to their competing philosophy. In the case of Nazism there was an attempt to meld Christ-worship with state-worship (Nazis were not atheists).

  In all cases from the Inquisition to the Holocaust, the common factor has been that the atrocities were committed by men who were acting on a “higher authority”. In other words, their philosophy allowed them to deflect responsibility for their actions, usually onto their victims.

  Again: it’s not a group’s religion (or lack of it) that makes them prone to committing atrocities. It is their willingness to transfer responsibility for their actions to some “higher” power. It’s all the same mentality. Whether they use God or The State as justification really doesn’t matter to the person on the other end of their sword.

• 262 tomg // Sep 5, 2006 at 1:33 pm

  http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?next_url=/watch%3Feurl%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fmypetjawa.mu.nu%252F%26v%3Dq946z_fycbE
  Death-by-Sniper
  U-tube, found in Jawa Report, Sept 1
  Seems to defy my knowledge of physics.

• 263 rightlinx.com » Blog Archive » Laugh Links (Better Late Than Never Edition) // Sep 5, 2006 at 1:45 pm

  [...] Blame Bush asks Has America Forgotten Hurricane Katrina? Scrappleface reports that One Year Later, Some Katrina Victims Slow To Respond. (Katrina fits in with this week’s theme nicely!) Combs Spouts Off suggests we Investigate Falling Gas Prices. IowaHawk notes Israeli Airstrike Leaves Reuters Ambulance in Flames, Chopped, Channeled. The Conservative Cat points out that Laura Ingraham was right about Nasrallah. [...]

• 264 The Bullwinkle Blog » Blog Archive » Last Laughs (Better Late Than Never Edition) // Sep 5, 2006 at 1:52 pm

  [...] Blame Bush asks Has America Forgotten Hurricane Katrina? Scrappleface reports that One Year Later, Some Katrina Victims Slow To Respond. (Katrina fits in with this week’s theme nicely!) Combs Spouts Off suggests we Investigate Falling Gas Prices. IowaHawk notes Israeli Airstrike Leaves Reuters Ambulance in Flames, Chopped, Channeled. The Conservative Cat points out that Laura Ingraham was right about Nasrallah. [...]

• 265 Godfrey // Sep 5, 2006 at 1:54 pm

  Gotta love those partial sentences.

• 266 Godfrey // Sep 5, 2006 at 2:13 pm

  On another topic, here’s a great article about one of the United States’ oft-overlooked contribution to the world, Norman Borlaug, a poor Iowa farmboy who grew up to become “the man who fed the world”.

  Why bring him up? Because he represents a triumph of the great American ideal that so many seem to despise. I’ve always found it odd that people resent American success even as they benefit from it.

  Envy, perhaps?

  Anyway, it’s nice to read an uplifting article for a change.

• 267 RedPepper // Sep 5, 2006 at 2:24 pm

  #261 Godfrey: … willingness to transfer responsibility …

  I suggest, Godfrey, that is the whole point! Although the apologists for the Islamists are fond of referring to Islam as the “Religion of Peace”, it is actually “Submission to the Will of Allah”. This mindset, BTW, does not exactly encourage independent thought. Try comparing and contrasting the number of Israeli Nobel Prize winners to the winners from the entire Islamic world sometime!

• 268 tomg // Sep 5, 2006 at 2:49 pm

  Re266
  100 years ago we raised grain for feeding the animals that powered our world. 10 years ago we could feed the world, becuase the animals were not needed. Now people who do not understand a simple energy balance and its boundaries are leading us to raise grain to power cars, at the expense of food.
  Gee, at best alcohol can be made with the same energy it will produce. Pollute twice! Thats the ticket.

• 269 Godfrey // Sep 5, 2006 at 2:56 pm

  RedPepper #267: “apologists for the Islamists are fond of referring to Islam as the “Religion of Peace”, it is actually “Submission to the Will of Allah”.”

  Does not Christianity entail submission to the will of God? And don’t all totalitarian philosophies require submission to the will of the collective?

  I don’t think Islam is fundamentally different. In other words I don’t view Islam itself as fundamentally good or evil (I feel the same way about Christianity) but as a function of the collective sensibilities of its current followers.

  You can find encouragement of peace and love in the Koran just as you can find incitement to war and hatred, which is also the case with the Bible. It just depends on which passages the religion’s adherents, particularly its leaders, decide to apply.

  In other words, Islam is a “religion of peace”. But it is also a religion of war, depending on the interpretation.

  As always, it comes down to the practioners rather than the philosophy.

• 270 Godfrey // Sep 5, 2006 at 3:02 pm

  tomg: It’s all so complicated. I yearn for the days of Fred-powered vehicles…

• 271 onlineanalyst // Sep 5, 2006 at 3:33 pm

  While most of us (wisely) dismissed the Plame/Wilson debacle as a story ginned up by David Corn and the rest of the netroot BDS nuts, Wes Pruden puts the (non)story to bed. humorously.

• 272 Hawkeye // Sep 5, 2006 at 3:40 pm

  Godfrey,

  Islam is only a “religion of peace” in so far as Muslims believe that the whole world will be at peace when the whole world is Muslim. And if the whole world does not convert to Islam, then they will force the issue. I guess that makes sense in an arrogant sort of way.

  Islam lacks an extraordinary number of things we take for granted in Judaism or Christianity. For example, Islam has no 10 Commandments. It’s OK to kill, steal, lie, cheat, etc. in order to further Islam. Mohammed himself was pedophile. This lack of any fundamental moral underpinning makes Islam dangerous IMO.

• 273 JamesonLewis3rd // Sep 5, 2006 at 3:40 pm

  I have checked two translations of the Bible and nowhere, either in the OT or NT, are the words “stone(s)(ed)(ing),” “disobedient” and “children” to be found in the same verse.

  Any verses with the words “stone(s)(ed)(ing)” and “children” in them have nothing to do with “children” in the sense of underage offspring.

  And one thing for sure: Jesus never condoned the stoning of anyone, child or adult, saint or sinner.

• 274 RedPepper // Sep 5, 2006 at 4:05 pm

  #272 Hawkeye: I’m with you. Islam encourages Muslims to be peaceful and charitable towards each other (although even that has not worked out swimmingly for them – the Sunni/Shia split is just for starters!) , their attitude towards the “unbelievers” is more, ah… problematic. And if you ask, what interpretation of Islam is gaining ground these days, well …

  circumspice …

• 275 Godfrey // Sep 5, 2006 at 4:22 pm

  Hawkeye re #272: I certainly agree that Islam is dangerous. But I disagree that it lacks a moral underpinnings, even if it’s not codified in the way the Ten Commandments is. Like Christianity, it has rules against stealing, killing, etc. I’ll leave it to others to determine which system is superior.

  The fact that those underpinnings are constantly “massaged” by jihadists seeking religious justification for their actions is not in dispute. But it’s worth noting that the same thing has occurred with most belief systems at some point in history.

  JL3 re: #273:

  God commands repeatedly in the Old
  Testament that disobedient (i.e. rebellious) sons be put to death (
  Exodus 21:15,
  Leviticus 20:9,
  Deuteronomy 21:18-21).

  Jesus himself upholds this passage directly in Mark 7:8-11,
  scolding followers for not doing so.

  I’m sure you can piece together alternative intentions for these passages (that’s the beauty of a complex 2000+-year-old religion) but that wouldn’t address the point: many Biblical laws don’t apply in today’s world (i.e. we don’t put people to death for adultery these days).

  This merely illustrates that religion (including presumably Islam) can and does evolve in accordance with the sensibilities of its followers. So it seems to follow, then, that if you can alter those sensibilities you can alter Islam.

• 276 onlineanalyst // Sep 5, 2006 at 4:30 pm

  All that I can say is “Wow” over this provocative piece, which explores feminism’s “war on boys” and its promotion of PC to pave the way for Western society’s submission to Islam. This analysis makes a lot of sense, and the ironies of feminism’s unintended consequences are significant.

• 277 boberinagain // Sep 5, 2006 at 4:50 pm

  Doubtful that many will see this, fewer will care.

  Got laid off today after 18+ years at the same job. Please (those of you that can stand me) do not send any more e-mails to bobm@mss1.com

  If you like, you can use boberinmarcy@verizon.net

  Thanks, it’s been a swell ride, see y’all in another life! I’ll check in again from time to time just to be sure y’all is being good

  TTFN

• 278 JamesonLewis3rd // Sep 5, 2006 at 4:53 pm

  RE: #275~~

  Jesus is scolding them for something else altogether in that passage in Mark.

  As for Exodus 21:15, the penalty for murder is death–the verse is not about “rebelliousness” per se.

  As for Leviticus 20:9, an understanding of the word “curse” is necessary–the verse is not about mere “rebelliousness” either.

  As for Deuteronomy 21:18-21, repeated criminal offenses by adults are dealt with harshly to this day–this is not about an underage offspring.

  Therefore, my post #273 remains true.

• 279 tomg // Sep 5, 2006 at 5:05 pm

  Bob –
  Know I can’t understand, but hoping and praying this somehow works out with you and family all OK in the end.
  Wishing I could could say whatever would be best to say right now.
  tomg

• 280 tomg // Sep 5, 2006 at 5:07 pm

  Now I’m stuttering.
  Guess I do care

• 281 Hawkeye // Sep 5, 2006 at 5:09 pm

  RedPepper,

  Amen. I don’t know the statistics, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it turned out that more Muslims were killed by Muslims than by any other religious group (in recent years anyway).

• 282 Godfrey // Sep 5, 2006 at 5:30 pm

  Boberin: sorry to hear about your layoff. Change is what you make of it, though: I got “laid off” in 1996 by a smug guy in a suit and haven’t looked back. I’ve been fortunate enough to have worked for myself since then. Blessing in disquise and all that.

  Perhaps it’s time to open up that Leftorium you’ve been dreaming about. Hit the ground running, my friend. Best of luck!

• 283 R.A.M. // Sep 5, 2006 at 5:43 pm

  boberin: We do NOT agree on much politically, BUT, I pray that you find employment again soon.

  Believe it or not, when God closes one door, HE opens another!

  May God bless you and your family!

  R.A.M.

• 284 Godfrey // Sep 5, 2006 at 6:03 pm

  JL3 re: #278

  Jesus is scolding them for something else altogether in that passage in Mark.

  Yes, he’s talking about obeying God’s laws…and he uses the Mosaic example of putting to death a son who has cursed his parents as an example of laws that should be obeyed. It’s really quite clear.

  As for Exodus 21:15, the penalty for murder is death–the verse is not about “rebelliousness” per se.

  Hitting your parents isn’t rebellious?

  The verse goes: “And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.”

  Hitting mom or dad is a capital offense. There really isn’t any other way to interpret that.

  “As for Deuteronomy 21:18-21, repeated criminal offenses by adults are dealt with harshly to this day–this is not about an underage offspring.”

  This passage is not about criminals, it’s quite plainly about rebellious sons:

  The passage reads: “If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father…all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die”.

  Again, this cannot be more clear. Rebellious sons should be put to death. Although the Bible never specifically mentions “underage offspring”–and nor did I–it never specifically excludes them either. Are you saying you would approve of this law if it applied to 18-year-olds who disobey their parents?

  Therefore, my post #273 remains true.

  As I have demonstrated, it does not. With the exception of Jesus’ never stoning anyone (which I never claimed) your post is incorrect.

  I also note that you never actually addressed my main point, but you have (perhaps inadvertently) illustrated it beautifully: you have taken crystal-clear commands from God and “re-interpreted” them to fit your modern sensibilities.

  You have intellectualized the “Word of God” to the point that it no longer need be taken literally. The words are very plain, but you take them to mean something which is more suited to your comfort level.

  I assure you that the ancient Hebrew tribes for whom these words were first written took them quite literally indeed. Happily, that sort of thing doesn’t wash anymore. Judeo-Christian values have evolved–and thank goodness for that.

• 285 Darthmeister // Sep 5, 2006 at 6:27 pm

  Godfrey, you said modern Christians “outgrew the notions” blah, blah, blah. I couldn’t let that go by.

  We Christians didn’t “outgrow” anything. Any honest expositor of the most basic teachings of the Bible soon realizes why it is divide into THE OLD TESTAMENT and THE NEW TESTAMENT. The context is clear to any honest seeker, the commands given to the offspring of Abraham by YHWH to conquer certain people were precisely that, commands given to the Hebrews. How silly would it be for Christians today or even a thousand years ago to go on a Quixotic crusade looking for non-existent Philistines just because God commanded King David to do battle with them? This is very elementary stuff, even children in Sunday school intuitively understand this thing called historical context.

  As to the Crusades that seculars self-righteously cluck about (as if their hands are clean of the blood of tens of millions spilt by secular regimes within the last 100 years), the first Crusade was in response to Seljuk Turks who were overunning the historical Holy Land and harassing and murdering Christians who would not convert. Those Christians asked their European brethren for help with respect to this new Islamic depradation. Some historians believe the Crusades were actually a belated response to the militancy of the newly unified Arab tribes against Holy Land Christians in the 7th and 8th Centuries.

  However, the Egyptian ruler of Philistia (Palestine) by the name of Hakim who began persecuting Christians and Jews around 1012 A.D. was what eventually set the stage for the First Crusade. This most closely parallels my understanding of the actual historical dynamics taking place during the beginning of the second millenium A.D.

  Here’s another overview of the early Islamic jihads against Byzantine Christians that is often ignored by secular historians who are more prone to blame Christians for every evil thing which happened during the “Dark Ages”. I admit there is a Christian bias in this overview, but its no more egregious than the secular sometimes anti-Christian bias that most modern “historians” bring to the table themselves.

• 286 JamesonLewis3rd // Sep 5, 2006 at 6:31 pm

  RE: #284~~

  My posts are for those who wish to know the truth.

  I assert it is you who has twisted Scripture to suit your own prejudices.

  By the way, while there are times when I might rely upon the KJV, it is not my only source. The word “smite,” for example, is translated “curse” in most other translations which is far more accurate in today’s English.

  Jesus was chastizing those men for their legalistic hypocrisy–applying the law to others and not themselves–not for not stoning someone.

  Finally, #259 said “disobedient children” and that is what my reply was in referencing.

  My post #273 is true and accurate.

• 287 Darthmeister // Sep 5, 2006 at 6:52 pm

  Hmmm, more than a Christian bias. Just ignore the bold print. The historical points are valid, but the running commentary is a bit over-the-top in the last link I gave. Here’s a more neutral recounting of the Islamic depradations in the Holy Land and its environs that were heavily populated by Christians and Jews

• 288 Godfrey // Sep 5, 2006 at 7:14 pm

  Hank re: #285: …as if their hands are clean of the blood of tens of millions spilt by secular regimes within the last 100 years.

  Did you manage to read my views above regarding the causes of mass genocide (#259 #261, #269 et al)? In view of my statements in those posts it’s a bit of a strawman to assert that I am blaming Christianity. Or perhaps you’re talking about “secular” historians in general and not about me in particular?

  I don’t know of any secular historians that are out to “get” Christianity, of course, but I prefer to speak only for myself. I also acknowledge the obvious political component that would accompany any genocide.

  “The context is clear to any honest seeker…even children in Sunday school intuitively understand this thing called historical context.”

  So you’re saying that the Bible’s commandments, illustrations and parables aren’t to be universally applied? Were the Ten Commandments, then, intended only for the Hebrews? How do you know which ones to follow these days? Again, my point is illustrated: things that are not acceptable today as they were to ancient Hebrew tribesmen must be viewed “in context”.

  Which is the same thing as saying those particular items no longer apply.

  As for “outgrowing” the strictures of past religious dogma, I think it is plain to any “honest” person that Christianity is much more benign now than it has been in the past. I merely cited a few Bible verses as an example of what is quite obvious to most people; that the centuries have seen a softening and an evolution of Judeo-Christian philosophy from what would today be considered barbaric to its present incarnation. It is not an insult to call that “growth”. I stand by my use of the term.

  Your paragraphs about the Crusades were very interesting and I will read your cites, but I’m not sure how that applies. My point was that unscrupulous people will use philosophy (religious or otherwise) to justify atrocities. I’m not sure why you (or secular historians or other atheists or anyone) insist on a religious-secular divide when it comes to mass genocide: the real cause is obviously people who allow themselves to be manipulated by “groupthink” into doing things they should know are wrong.

  I think the Islamists are in this camp at the moment, but history shows that any group is susceptible to this sort of excess. And it suggests that they can outgrow it as well.

• 289 JamesonLewis3rd // Sep 5, 2006 at 7:20 pm

  RE: #286~~

  Rather than saying, “My posts are for those who wish to know the truth,” I should have said this:

  Wherever and whenever God’s Word is misrepresented by whoever for whatever reasons, I will do my best represent the Truth. I have no choice.

  I did not mean to imply that I know any more than anyone else but I do know God’s Word.

  God’s Word is not debatable. God does not change; His Word does not change. He means what He says and says what He means.

• 290 Godfrey // Sep 5, 2006 at 7:43 pm

  RE: #284~~

  My posts are for those who wish to know the truth.

  This is merely a discussion. Is such superciliousness really necessary? Very well…

  I assert it is you who has twisted Scripture to suit your own prejudices.

  Assertions were meant to be supported. Can you support yours? Or are you the one who is doing the twisting here, trying to fit an archaic law into your modern worldview?

  So far you have “supported” your assertions with little more than rhetoric. Please show me specifically how such a phrase as “And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death” can possibly mean anything other than it says.

  By the way, while there are times when I might rely upon the KJV, it is not my only source. The word “smite,” for example, is translated “curse” in most other translations which is far more accurate in today’s English.

  And would a son’s doing either to his parent warrant a death sentence by today’s standards?

  Jesus was chastizing those men for their legalistic hypocrisy–applying the law to others and not themselves–not for not stoning someone.

  Read it more carefully. He cited that particular Mosaic law and scolded them for not applying it uniformly, yes: but the point is that this constitutes approval of the law.

  Finally, #259 said “disobedient children” and that is what my reply was in referencing.

  The word “disobedient”, you’ll notice, wasn’t a quote from the Bible. It was therefore a paraphrase. Surely it is accurate to characterize a son who “will not obey” his parents as “disobedient”?

  My post #273 is true and accurate.

  It’s actually almost completely inaccurate. I realize this matter is of importance to you and it is not my intention to offend you, but the facts are the facts. The Bible says what it says.

• 291 JamesonLewis3rd // Sep 5, 2006 at 7:53 pm

  Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:

  “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: ” ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

  Matthew 22:34-40

• 292 Godfrey // Sep 5, 2006 at 7:56 pm

  Godfrey: “The Bible says what it says.”

  JL3: “He means what He says and says what He means.”

  Wow! Great minds think alike!

• 293 Darthmeister // Sep 5, 2006 at 8:33 pm

  Godfrey,

  The most literal translation of the Fifth Commandment is, “Give honor to your father and mother, and you shall live long in the land YHWH is giving you.” As to your ahistorical misunderstanding of the disobedience of a son leading to stoning, here’s one of the better legal and historical treatments of this issue. Don’t be a bull in a china closet when it comes to an honest understanding of the Bible, Godfrey. There are nuances and Jewish jurisprudence which impinge upon what looks like simple reading of the text. Text out of context is pretext.

• 294 Darthmeister // Sep 5, 2006 at 8:43 pm

  BTW, Godfrey, what do you think the effect would be today if sons who beat their aging parents were routinely given the death penalty after having had their day in court?

  I bet there would be a heck of a lot less rebellious young bucks beating the crap out of their parents … or other innocent people for that matter. Now, would this be a good thing or a bad thing for civil society? I hardly think our permissive, crime ridden society is something to crow about in the grand scheme of things. Shows you how tolerant today’s Christians and our Christian ancestors have become. Unfortunately, at times, we’ve become too tolerant of outright evil.

• 295 Godfrey // Sep 5, 2006 at 9:28 pm

  Hank: re#293: Wondering why you invoked the fifth commandment, I read the article you cited in its entirety.

  One of the most obvious omissions by the writer of this article lies in the very intricacy of his argument. The fact is that the Bible was written by and for ancient Hebrews, nearly all of whom were completely illiterate. If you told them “it is vital to proper interpretation and application that the precise nature of the case be ascertained” they’d scratch their heads in confusion.

  And yet they’re supposed to glean some subtle, nuanced meaning from the phrase “he that smiteth his father…shall be surely put to death”?

  Forgive me, but that seems patently absurd. Surely God, being God, bestowed His Word upon his children in a way they would clearly understand, no? Assuming God’s existence, is it not infinitely more probable that He simply means exactly what He says? This article seems like an elaborate evasion, nothing more.

  Which is perhaps why, near the end of the article, the author sort of undercuts his own argument: he upholds the Mosaic Law that imposes the death penalty on children for striking or cursing their parents! Which of course leads me to wonder why he wrote the article in the first place, since all his banter about “case law” does nothing to rebut the barbaric nature of that particular law.

  So we’re right back where we started: would any modern Christian consider putting his son to death for striking and/or cursing one of his parents? Is this law even remotely tenable today?

  Obviously not. And if that’s the case, it is obvious that sensibilities have changed from the days when that passage was written. Which was my rather innocuous point in the first place.

• 296 Godfrey // Sep 5, 2006 at 9:35 pm

  Oh, I love it when I forget the closing tags. Oh well.

  Hank: re #294: You talk about men who “beat” their “aging” parents. But the law applies equally to, say, an 18-year-old with a rebellious streak who curses at his dad for not letting him use the car. Now my child would never, never do such a thing–not from fear of retribution but from carefully ingrained respect. But if she did I’d certainly let her off with something short of a death sentence!

  Do I have much sympathy for a man who serially abuses his 93-year-old mother? Of course not. But the law doesn’t only apply to him…which is why it wouldn’t work in today’s society.

  On another topic, at what point do we break the record for “world’s Scrapple thread”??? We’re approaching the 300 mark!

  Hope Scott’s okay.

• 297 Darthmeister // Sep 5, 2006 at 9:43 pm

  You have intellectualized the “Word of God” to the point that it no longer need be taken literally. The words are very plain, but you take them to mean something which is more suited to your comfort level.

  We’ve done no such thing, Godfrey. The book of Hebrews, written nearly two thousand years ago, explains the Christian’s relationship to Mosaic Law. Naturally, you can accuse the author of Hebrews of trying to “intellectualize away” the Old Testament, but that would be a stretch since its pretty clear to me the God-inspired author is explaining how Messiah, as the sacrificial Lamb of God, us the fulfillment of the Law. We’re merely being faithful to the New Covenant to which we are called. There is no contradiction.

  Read Hebrews chapters 8 through 10. The Law is merely a shadow of the good things to come, Messiah is the substance. The Law is a tutor which brings us to Messiah since the Law doesn’t have the power to redeem and never makes a claim to that effect.

  Even under the Mosaic sacrificial system, the blood of bulls and goats could not take away sin. Though the Law was perfect in its reflection of God’s moral nature, the power of redemption can only be found in the blood of Jesus, the Savior given for man’s redemption. Because by one sacrifice, this Messiah has made perfect forever those who draw near. This is what the wisdom of God says and not the wisdom of man.

  Even Jesus taught the futility of perfectly following the Law. Did he not say if one merely hated his brother he committed murder? Did he not also say if one looked upon another person and sexually lusted after them they’ve committed adultery. I mean, who hasn’t done that at some point in their lives?

  And to add insult to injury, God spoke in James 2:10, “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking it all.” Once again a newer testament to the fact that because the Law is perfect and man is rebellious and flawed, he cannot possibly hope to keep the whole Law as God intended. Thus, the Law of Moses is a tutor which directs both Jew and Gentile to the most Perfect High Priest, Messiah Jesus.

  When Christ came as a High Priest of the good things that are already here, He went throught the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made (temples made of stone) … He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves (the Mosaic sacrificial system which was but a shadow of things to come); but He entered the Most Holy Place once for all by His own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. …For this reason Messiah is the mediator of a new covenant … He has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.”

• 298 Darthmeister // Sep 5, 2006 at 9:46 pm

  You understanding of “disobedient” and the understanding of Jews three thousand years ago as to what constitutes a “disobedient” child are clearly different. You’re not only trying to span a language barrier but also a cultural barrier.

  The comments at the link I gave about how the Jews viewed this kind of “disobedience” still stands. I believe if one has to take their son before a court, it has to be pretty darn serious, whether Jew or Gentile.

• 299 Darthmeister // Sep 5, 2006 at 9:47 pm

  …oops.

• 300 JamesonLewis3rd // Sep 5, 2006 at 10:40 pm

  CCC

• 301 RedPepper // Sep 5, 2006 at 10:58 pm

  #277 boberin: Very sorry to hear of your troubles. I urge you to focus on this fact; ours lives, ultimately, are what we choose to make of them. Earlier today, I carted one last carload of possessions out of my former home, which I had to sell after getting hit by a pair of strokes. Also had to retire from my civil service career after a run of 35+ years. I’m happy to still be a) alive b) ambulatory and c) in semi-decent financial shape. I wish you good fortune, and I believe that in the long run, you’ll be just fine.

  Now go do me a favor and prove me right.

• 302 Godfrey // Sep 5, 2006 at 11:22 pm

  Hank:

  I’m sorry, but you’re countering a rather plain assertion with what sounds like a whole lot of mysticism. I’m familiar, of course, with the cleansing power blood was supposed to have had for the ancients, from animals to humans, from the Sacred Kings to Mithra and Jesus. What I don’t understand is how the whole “blood of the lamb” theory has any bearing on the matter of the obvious changes undergone by Christianity over the centuries.

  You do say that “because the Law is perfect and man is rebellious and flawed, he cannot possibly hope to keep the whole Law as God intended.” But it’s not a question of whether we “can” live according to the religious tribal laws of the ancient Hebrews–it’s whether we want to.

  Let me put it in simple terms: God said “rebellious sons shall be put to death” but we do not. God said “kill adulterers” but we do not. We don’t cut off the hands of women who try to rescue their husbands from an attacker. We don’t set horny preachers’ daughters on fire or kill homosexuals. Why don’t these laws apply anymore? What has changed?

  I’ll answer that for you; we have changed. We’ve grown up a bit. There are a host of Mosaic Laws that seem either barbaric or utterly silly to modern folk. The reason we disregard them is not because we are miserable, hapless wretches who cannot ever hope to measure up to the perfection of God’s laws; we disregard them because they are either cruel or downright silly.

• 303 Godfrey // Sep 5, 2006 at 11:23 pm

  Darnit, JL3. I’d hoped to take the CCC honors…

• 304 Ms RightWing, Ink // Sep 5, 2006 at 11:48 pm

  Wow, someone set Scrapple afire. It is to bad I tuned in late because I have a lot to comment on what I sped read through, but have little time. I just spent 4 hours of pulling my hair with a bunch of new agers. You can only argue with reason–not stuffed pulled out of a hat.

  Boberin, I guess you must of said you got laid off. I didn’t see the post in my speed reading, but my heart and prayers goes out to you.

  JamesonLewis3rd

  re: 291 I have been teaching on that and other comparative passages for weeks in our Bunker Bible Study. Deep as an ocean when you start to analyze it.

• 305 Ms RightWing, Ink // Sep 5, 2006 at 11:50 pm

  not stuffed er, not stuff

• 306 JamesonLewis3rd // Sep 6, 2006 at 12:00 am

  RE: #302~~

  Why don’t these laws apply anymore? What has changed?

  Ah, now we get to the crux of the matter and what I believe is the source of misunderstanding (probably miscommunication on my part):

  We are no longer under the law, we are under the Blood.

  Jesus fulfilled the law.

  Jesus did for us what we could never do for ourselves.

  Hence, what He said in Matthew 22:34-40 (my post #291).

• 307 JamesonLewis3rd // Sep 6, 2006 at 12:33 am

  Anyway, I found President Bush’s speech somewhat inspirational today. It would have been nice if he’d ended by pounding the podium with his fist, veins bulging, and yelled, “We’re gonna moitelize ‘em!”

  I also found the National Strategy for Combating Terrorism informational (though lacking in the specifics I would have liked) and was glad to get, at least, a partial insight into their way of thinking. This sure isn’t my father’s war…..

• 308 JamesonLewis3rd // Sep 6, 2006 at 1:10 am

  This is interesting:

  The Employment Numbers and the Unreported 4 Million Jobs

• 309 rv // Sep 6, 2006 at 1:37 am

  Godfree:
  I realize I’m coming rather late to this party, but I cannot let your assertion that we don’t keep all the Mosaic laws ’cause we’re much more advanced in our thinking now.
  WRONG!
  The items you recite were written to address issues which were vitally important to the survival of God’s Chosen Folks — and to make sure that everybody understood the seriousness of what YHWH was addressing.
  They were also written for us, today. Not necessarily the actions specified (stoning and such) but the seriousness of what caused them to be written in the first place.
  Unlike other “Holy Books”, the TANAKH and the New Covenant apply to every facet of life today.

• 310 R.A.M. // Sep 6, 2006 at 4:32 am

  Godfrey: The LAW didn’t work, but GRACE, (in the form of JESUS’ sacrifice), does!

  I know Hank and JL3 already said this, I was just trying to be pithy.

• 311 Effeminem // Sep 6, 2006 at 6:28 am

  Uh huh.

  IMAO, the purpose of religion is to alter the behavior of humanity on a large scale. Presumably this fulfills God’s purposes in some way. For example, monogamous species evolve differently than polygamous ones. Widespread murder and mayhem diverts resources that could be better applied to other pursuits, like putting a man on the moon.

  Imagine the power of a chemist who could change the properties of the chemicals he worked with.

  Anyway, theology deserves good logic. Here’s an example of bad logic, and it bears on the mysticism that annoys Godfrey so much: “Law” is not something that is “fulfilled.” Maybe yall mean something by that, but as a sentence it is meaningless. Prophecies are fulfilled. Laws are passed, obeyed, broken, or obsolete. Some verbs go with some nouns.

  Maybe the law was rendered obsolete by the evolution of human thought; perhaps around 0 AD mankind became capable of acting on broad principles rather than micromanagement, and hence God rescinded the old rules for people that agreed to follow the new rules.

  Say that, and don’t rely on mixing up words to create sentences full of weighty connotation but no thought.

  Personally, I don’t think that the Mosaic law applied to anyone but the Hebrews, and if there were no New Covenant it still wouldn’t apply to me.

• 312 Darthmeister // Sep 6, 2006 at 8:25 am

  Godfrey, let me put it in very plain and secular terms that you can understand.

  The American Founders, as steeped as they were in Judeo-Christian teaching, reaffirmed this basic principle of natural and revealed law: The moral laws of God were immutable; the institutions, ordinances and regulations of human government are mutable.

  The Ten Commandments are those immutable, moral laws of God. The Mosaic law which consisted of ordinances, regulations and every permutation necessary for an ancient theocracy was made for the Jew.

  The New Testament makes it plain that Christians are not to fall into the trap of thinking that the Jewish law was made for Gentiles. There is liberty in Christ and Messiah has set us free from the elemental principles of outward legalism because the moral law of God is now written in our hearts. This is precisely what the Christian founders meant by self-government, man would govern himself according to the law in his heart and his conscience, which will be consist with the external laws of just government. This does not make us anarchists and there is no contradiction because God’s moral law is the firmest support, the firmest foundation of just government, whether Jew or Gentile, Roman or Greek.

  I am a New Testament Gentile. Why do you want to put me back under a body of law which consists of ordinances and regulations made for the Jew?

  It seems your questions are better addressed to the Jews who, in many cases, no longer follow their Old Testament law. But the New Testament has plainly explained the Gentile believer’s relationship to Mosaic Law which consists of particular ordinances and regulations made for the Jew – there is none.

  However, the moral law contained in the Ten Commandments is universal and co-eval with man. John Adams, second U.S. president and a contemporary of James Madison, proclaimed, “It would be impossible to govern without God and the Ten Commandments.”

  Abraham Lincoln said: “It seems to me that nothing short of infinite wisdom could by any possibility have devised and given to man this excellent and perfect moral code. It is suited to man in all conditions of life, and includes all the duties they owe to their Creator, to themselves and to their fellow man.”

  The Ten Commandments can and should be the basis for all just governments in all their various permutations around the globe. If a system of communism was based upon the Ten Commandments, it would probably be a very positive force in the governance of people who so deign to live under such a system.

• 313 Darthmeister // Sep 6, 2006 at 9:25 am

  Godfrey, even the American Founders had a very similar understanding about belief in God and His moral law and the governance of man:

  James Madison, father of the American Constitution:
  “And the belief in a God All Powerful, Wise and good, is so essential to the moral order of the world and to the happiness of man, that arguments which support it cannot be drawn from too many sources … But whatever effect may be produced on some minds by the more abstract train of ideas which you so strongly support, it will probably always be found that the course of reasoning from the effect to the cause, ‘from Nature to Nature’s God,’ will be the more universal and persuasive application.” Letter to Frederick Beasley, November 20, 1825

  “We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of the government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions … upon the capacity of each and all of us to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” 1789. Documented in “Liberty! Cry Liberty!”, 1939, pp. 32-33

  James Madison, George Mason and Thomas Jefferson co-authored this from the Virginia Bill of Religious Remonstrances:
  It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage, and such only, as he believes to be acceptable to him. This duty is precedent both in order of time and degree of obligation, to the claims of Civil Society. Before any man can be considered as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe … much more must every man who becomes a member of any particular Civil Society, do it with a saving of his allegiance to the Universal Sovereign. Whilst we assert for ourselves a freedom to embrace, to profess, and to observe the Religion which we believe to be of Divine origin, we cannot deny an equal freedom to those whose minds have not yet yielded to the evidence which has convinced us.

  John Jay, first Supreme Court Justice and Chief Justice:
  “The moral or natural law was given by the Sovereign of the Universe to all mankind; with them it was co-eval, and with them it will be co-existent. Being founded by infinite wisdom and goodness on essential right, which never varies, it can require no amendment or alteration … I advert to this distinction between moral law and positive institutions, because it enables us to distinguish the reasonings which apply to the one, from those which apply only to the other – ordinances being mutable, but the moral law always the same.” Letter to John Murray, April 15, 1818

  Patrick Henry:
  “It cannot be emphasized too strongly or often that this great nation was founded, not by mere religionists, but by Christians; not upon religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ! For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” Found in “God’s Providence in America’s History”, 1988

  Founder Noah Webster in his 1832 “History of the United States”:
  “The moral principles and precepts contained in the Scriptures ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws. All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery, and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible.”

  John Adams:
  “We have no government armed with power capable of contending with passions unbridled by morality and religion … Our Constitution was made only for a moral and righteous people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” Letter to Dr. Prince, October 11, 1798.

  “Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law-book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obligated, in conscience, to temperance and frugality and industry; to justice and kindness and charity toward his fellow men; and to piety, love and reverence towards Almighty God.” Adam’s Diary Feb. 22, 1756

  Sorry, Scott, I’ll be tipping the jar soon.

• 314 Darthmeister // Sep 6, 2006 at 9:26 am

  …there it is!

• 315 Godfrey // Sep 6, 2006 at 1:09 pm

  Effeminem: I agree with your critique of the word “fulfill”. That’s like saying Hitler “liberated” the Jews.

  The classic argument, of course, is that Jesus “fulfilled” the laws in that the laws existed only as a path toward finding him…so once he was found they were no longer necessary. In other words, Jesus’ very presence fulfilled the purpose of the laws.

  But as you point out, this is complete malarkey. First, the idea of putting children to death for disobedience is abhorrent to any modern conscience. Saying that it was “the old law” and is no longer valid doesn’t mean that it never was a valid law of God. And what sort of God would impose such a law? Better to ignore those ramifications.

  Second, if we argue that the laws have indeed been “fulfilled” then it necessarily applies to all of them. We don’t get to pretend that certain Mosaic laws are still valid while others aren’t. By the above reasoning, ALL of the laws in the OT are “fulfilled” (i.e. repealed)–including the Ten Commandments. This is untenable as well, since Jesus upholds the Ten Commandments throughout the New Testament.

  Of course there is a lot of rhetorical obfuscation out there, which leads to another point: if Jesus/God wanted his laws to be understood, why didn’t He just state everything plainly in the first place? Remember, His audience is a population largely illiterate men. It seems cruel to lay down an inconsistent, nebulous law when the penalty for disobedience is eternal torture.

  In reality (or what passes for reality in the this discussion) Jesus was very specific in saying that the law of the Old Testament was/is still valid.

  “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

  -Matthew: 5:17-18

  The key phrase: Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law…

  Jesus upholds the law. So the assertion that God’s Old Testament laws are somehow invalidated by the New Testament don’t seem to hold water. So why is the view that some OT laws no longer apply so prevalent?

  Again, it’s a matter of evolution. The religion has evolved to fit the sensibililities of those practicing it. We ignore what we don’t like (such as Jesus’ acceptance of slavery, which relatively recently has come to be seen as a great evil) and we “pick out the good bits” to teach in Sunday school.

  The things in the Bible which offend people in a given era are invariably explained away as either non-applicable, miscontextualized or allegorical (as in the case of Solomon’s risqué poetry). This way we get to keep the good and toss out the bad.

  Sounds a lot like…dare I say it…natural selection.

• 316 JamesonLewis3rd // Sep 6, 2006 at 1:36 pm

  The Ten Commandments and the Law are two different things.

  “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.”~~Matthew 5:17

  He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”~~Luke 24:44

  But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: ‘They hated me without reason.’~~John 15:55

  “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.”~~John 13:34

• 317 Godfrey // Sep 6, 2006 at 3:30 pm

  JL3 #316: “The Ten Commandments and the Law are two different things.”

  Er…yeah…just as a house and its foundation are two different things… but they’re not.

  The Ten Commandments serve as the very basis for all Mosaic Law.

  Try again?

• 318 Musing » A Nancy Pelosi you’ll never see // Sep 6, 2006 at 4:55 pm

  [...] Unfortunate that these thoughts will never cross the mind of the woman who could be the next Leader of the House. [...]

• 319 Darthmeister // Sep 6, 2006 at 6:05 pm

  You’re absolutely right, Godfrey, the Ten Commandments are the basis of Mosaic Law just as it is the basis for American law. But that doesn’t make the Ten Commandments themselves Mosaic Law. Without getting into other issues like Messiah being the foundation of all foundations, imagine the Ten Commandments as one huge foundational slab which indeed undergirds Mosaic law, but there are many other governmental systems would can be built on this huge slab of God’s moral truth. Like I said before there can be communist systems, parliamentary systems, pure democracies, constitutional republics which can also rest on the foundation of the Ten Commandments, and mankind would be greatly benefitted. One big happy global community, right? Like what we have here in America, right? Leave it to self-interested man to always screw up that which can be good for the greatest number of people.

  For the Jews, Mosaic law was derived from the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments also provided a foundation for much of western civilization’s legal framework. Sir William Blackstone’s Commentaries on natural and revealed law undergirded the common law of colonial America. Much of that legal thinking was “grandfathered” in under the Constitution and still provides the legal framework for American jurisprudence today though secular humanists are trying mightily to change that reality.

  But to indiscriminately roll the Ten Commandments up with the Mosaic law – which can be broken down into dietary laws, religious law, priestly law, laws of observances, etc, – does a disservice to an honest and nuanced understanding of the Old Testament. Keep in mind the Apostle Peter’s admonition which has broad application: “Indeed, there are some things Paul teaches that are difficult to understand, that the untaught and unstable distort to their own destruction.”

  Suffice it to say, given the complexities and spiritual nuances of Holy Writ, there are some people who are not, shall we say, attitudinally equipped to ever understand the more difficult biblical principles and nuances. How can a skeptic ever hope to understand that which he already loathes, rejects or really knows next to nothing about the subject when he thinks he already knows it all? It would be like a Windows 2000 user who knows nothing about machine language, the hexadecimal system and computer programming claiming the manuals used at that level of computer operations was nothing but confusing, contradictory jibberish simply because he couldn’t or wouldn’t understand them. If a person sets out to find error, guess what, if he doesn’t find error he’ll manufacture one! It’s just human nature. Now exercising healthy and honest skepticism is a good think. Even the Apostle Paul warned young Timothy: “Examine everything carefully BUT HOLD FAST TO THAT WHICH IS GOOD.”

  Excerpt from link I gave:
  The dangers of rejecting the principles of Blackstone’s Commentaries, and the Judeo-Christian worldview they reflect, are monumental. Two scholars of widely varying perspectives – Alexander Solzhenitsyn, the Russian dissident; and David Easton, the influential, secular American political scientist – agree on the dangers that America faces. Solzhenitsyn asserts that Western society, including American society, has suffered a critical decline and deterioration. A key contributor to this perilous situation has been the rise of a de-spiritualized and irreligious humanism, which presages the impending downfall of Western society absent a reversal of Western attitudes, including renewed faith in a Supreme Being.

  Easton attempts to analyze and explain political systems with a model that emphasizes “stress.” He argues that “stress” is a major enemy of a political system that can lead to the system’s failing: “Major tendencies toward output failure [by the political system] are set in motion by internal dissension and conflict among members of the political system. Cleavages [diversity of opinions and attitudes] may so divide the members of the political system [including the judicial system] that they find themselves unable to cooperate, negotiate, or compromise their differences. Cleavage… is a central condition in inducing output failure by government and undermining support [for government] in other ways as well.25

  The principles of Blackstone’s Commentaries are a bulwark against the “impending downfall” of our society, and the cement that prevents lethal cleavages from rending America in two. We can re-establish our Constitution and culture on Blackstonian/Judeo-Christian principles, or we can continue bashing Blackstone, and destroy America as we know it. There are no other options.

• 320 Godfrey // Sep 6, 2006 at 8:15 pm

  Hank: How can a skeptic ever hope to understand that which he already loathes, rejects or really knows next to nothing about…?.

  That’s not how “understanding” works. Understanding comes from analysis and critical thought. Of the above attributes I am guilty only of rejection. I neither loathe nor am I ignorant of Scripture.

  If anything the inverse is true. How can someone understand something…truly understand it…if he is unwilling to admit to himself that certain claims may be false? That is exactly the opposite of critical thought. That is evasion.

  But I digress. Regarding the Ten Commandments:

  First of all, the Ten Commandments are mostly redundant…meaning they simply codify what most human societies find necessary for survival. Don’t murder, don’t steal, don’t lie, don’t commit adultery. These rules are pervasive throughout non-Christian societies and even pre-Christian societies.

  In considering whether they are truly a substantial basis for modern law, it is instructive to note what is NOT in the Ten Commandments. Seems like it would have been a good time for God to clarify the impropriety of things like rape, slavery or child abuse (which reminds me…don’t you find it odd that the Commandments so thoroughly protect parents from abusive children but not vice-versa? This strange omission shows how much humanity–and Christianity–have progressed since they were written).

  Equally telling is the fact that the Ten Commandments (much like the men who lived in the era in which they were created) equate a man’s wife with this slave or his donkey… possessions not to be “coveted”. Ignoring of course that while it’s possible to control one’s deeds it is not possible to control one’s thoughts. Covetousness is involuntary.

  I’m not pointing all of this out to deride the Bible, only to illustrate my point that the human mindset has changed vastly since it was written. There has been a gradual shift…most would say for the better… since the Ten Commandments came into being.

  The Commandments may be cited by some founding fathers and subsequent lawgivers who happend to be religious, but they are not the basis for modern law in any tangible sense. The universal existence of their tenets in both Christian and non-Christian cultures shows that they merely illustrate natural principles of human interaction that pre-existed them and therefore would have existed anyway.

  Except for the graven image thing, of course.

• 321 Darthmeister // Sep 6, 2006 at 10:36 pm

  First of all, the Ten Commandments are mostly redundant…meaning they simply codify what most human societies find necessary for survival. Don’t murder, don’t steal, don’t lie, don’t commit adultery. These rules are pervasive throughout non-Christian societies and even pre-Christian societies.

  Precisely, that is the internal law of conscience that everyone has being that they are created in the image of God. As the book of Romans says, “Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law (of Moses), do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law (of Moses), since they show that the requirements of the (moral) law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.” Romans 2:14,15.

  You citing the universality of moral law is actually a support to biblical teaching. As Thomas Jefferson said, “It shows how necessary was the care of the Creator in making the moral principle so much a part of our constitution … The Creator would indeed have been a bungling artist had he intended man for a social animal, without planting in him social dispositions.”

  I know you probably see the fact that previous societies and peoples had similar laws and that Moses simply copied those laws or those he learned in Egypt, subsequently codifying it in his man-made Ten Commandments. But in light of what I’ve already shared I believe you’re looking through the wrong end of the telescope on this one, too.

  But what sets the Mosaic law apart from all the ancient legal systems before or after is the incorporation of the enlightened concept which James Madison and other mainstream founders embraced, “It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage, and such only, as he believes to be acceptable to him. This duty is precedent both in order of time and degree of obligation, to the claims of Civil Society. Before any man can be considered as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe.”

  It is precisely the first five Ten Commandments which give added weight and moral authority to the last five. As JL3 correctly noted, Jesus perfectly summed up the Ten Commandments – and the entire thrust of Mosaic Law – with these two commands: “Love the Lord thy God with all your heart, soul and mind”, and “love your neighbor as you love yourself.”

  Godfrey, it’s not that your are incapable of understanding what I’m saying or that I’m not giving salient and consistent answers to your questions, but rather you are committed to not see outside the paradigm that you find much comfort in. Believe me when I say that I used to believe exactly as you did with respect to biblical claims. I was thoroughly educated in the secular paradigm and had all the counter-arguments down pat and those arguments haven’t really changed much in the last thirty years! That much I am surprised about. I simply didn’t want to face the fact that I was accountable to a righteous and just God before Whom I will one day stand and give an account for my unbelief in the great salvation that Messiah Jesus accomplished on that cross of Calvary nearly 2000 years ago.

  I believed then the idea that the blood of Jesus could actually take away sin in the sight of God was a quaint myth based on ancient Zoroasterism, Mithraism, and other mystery religions. That the whole idea of a MESSIAH was borrowed from any number of pagan religions and the death and resurrection of Jesus was merely based on any number of new birth myths which existed in ages past.

  Where I was once blind, now I see.

• 322 A Special Report on Immigration - Beyond Borders Blog » Scott Ott on Katrina // Sep 6, 2006 at 11:55 pm

  [...] SCRAPPLEFACE: “One Year Later, Some Katrina Victims Still Slow to Respond” Filed under:Immigration— Conor Friedersdorf @ 7:54 pm [...]

• 323 Darthmeister // Sep 7, 2006 at 12:17 am

  What should a person think when their anti-Bible views are echoed by an Islamofascist virtually verbatim?

  Are they drinking from the same poisoned well? It’s not like they are agreeing two plus two equals four. This is chilling.

• 324 Darthmeister // Sep 7, 2006 at 12:17 am

  …okay, where did it go?

• 325 Effeminem // Sep 7, 2006 at 4:21 am

  Well I’m a bit late as always, but it seems to me that God could have plenty of reasons for giving us confusing instructions. The stated purpose of religion may not be the actual purpose.

  Yes, I know that distrusting God is taking skepticism a bit far.

• 326 Darthmeister // Sep 7, 2006 at 8:44 am

  Effeminem, if we were perfectly honest, perfectly educated and perfectly informed, the Bible would make perfect sense.

  I’ve heard people talk about “contradictions” in the Bible and invariably its people reading those contradictions into it because of their lack of knowledge and fair-mindedness.

  For example, in the Gospel accounts, we read where in say the book of Matthew Jesus went up to the mountain to pray. In say the gospel of Luke it might say Jesus came down from the mountain to pray before he preached, and the skeptic goes, “Ah, hah! There’s a contradiction.”

  No, not really because from one person’s perspective, say several hours before Jesus began preaching to the gathering crowd, Jesus traveled to and up the mountain to pray before delivering his message. To someone newly arrived to hear Jesus speak, when Jesus came down from the upper part of the mountain to a level plateau or the foothills to preach, it would appear he came down from the mountain to preach.

  There’s another wonderful example of different perspectives telling the same story. In one gospel account it says Jesus traveled to such and thus place and it took him six days. In another gospel it says seven days, and still yet another it says eight days. “Contradiction!” screams the skeptic. Not so if one is fair-minded and remembers that people often tell time differently. What we do know concerning this particular account of Jesus traveling to another town is that it occurred on the same day of the week a week apart. The first accounting of six days is exclusive of the day of the observation of Jesus leaving and the day he arrived in the town, only the intervening days were being counted. In the eight day account, both the day Jesus left and the day he arrived are counted with the intervening days. And the seven day account doesn’t count the day he left but does count the day he arrived in said town – or vice versa. I would have said it was a seven day trip, particularly if he had left on the evening of the first day and arrived the morning of the last day.

  BTW, we had a troll about a year ago that was all caught up in the so-called contradictions of Scripture. With every one of the “contradictions” that he/she threw out several of us Scrapplers were able to demonstrate where there was no contradiction and I emailed him/her several other classic “contradictions” and asked him to figure them out himself/herself since they weren’t really contradictions after all. I then emailed the answers and never heard from him/her again. The last one I shared about the days of travel above was one of the ones I sent.

• 327 Godfrey // Sep 7, 2006 at 1:55 pm

  Effeminem: “God could have plenty of reasons for giving us confusing instructions”

  Why would he do that? Is he trying to weed out the smart ones?

  “The stated purpose of religion may not be the actual purpose.”

  So God’s…um…bearing false witness? Please explain.

  Hank: “I’ve heard people talk about “contradictions” in the Bible and invariably its people reading those contradictions into it because of their lack of knowledge and fair-mindedness.”

  The Bible is so full of contradictions that pointing them out seems almost like bad sportsmanship after a while. What, after all, do we expect from a bunch of ancient histories cobbled together from oral traditions based on the legends of a tribe of nomadic herdsmen? It is what it is. The lack of fair-mindedness comes into play when someone who is bent on believing the Bible’s mythology makes a statement like the above. No contradictions?! The contradictions start on page one.

  The good thing is scholars have actually figured out why those contradictions are probably there (and no, it’s not because a wily God is trying to confuse his children). They have parsed out the distinct “strains” of authorship by comparing writing styles, word usage, historical knowledge of the writers, etc. They’ve been able to discern, for instance, that some Gospel writers had access to the writings of Mark while others did not. And that some were based on a source that no longer exists. That some were intent on priestly matters while others focused on spirituality or history or the law.

  It’s actually quite fascinating. For anyone interested there is a great book called “Who Wrote The Bible?” by Richard E. Friedman. The author makes no religious or anti-religious pronouncements, so it’s very readable to people of all persuasions.

  Of course nothing is a contradiction if you are willing to postulate endlessly (and without evidence) to explain it away. Thus the following:

  “…from one person’s perspective, Jesus traveled to and up the mountain to pray before delivering his message. To someone newly…it would appear he came down from the mountain to preach.

  In other words this particular account is not infallible or revelatory, it’s just two guys writing from different, limited perspectives. Fair enough. If you applied that rationale to the entire Bible, there’d be no argument. What perks up the ears of the rational thinker is when you say “this is the infallible word of God” when in fact it is quite obviously written by mere men living in an era of pre-science and superstition.

  ”What should a person think when their anti-Bible views are echoed by an Islamofascist virtually verbatim? This is chilling.”

  No, it’s not chilling. What a person should think is that we live in an open, information-based world. The guy may have a towel on his head but he is from Orange County, Ca. He has access to the Internet and to the various systems of thought and philosophy that exist. Why would it be surprising for him to extract that bit of logical thought or analysis which he finds useful for his propaganda? Intelligent design “scientists” do that all the time.

  Your statement is actually hypocritical, Hank, and here’s why: despite his lambasting of Christianity Adam Gadahn is more like you then he is like me.

  Like you, he lives in a world governed not by logic but by magic. He believes his supernatural stories are true to the exclusion of all others. He accuses others of blindness (although you use the euphemism “secular paradigm”) for not believing what he believes–although, like you, he offers no rational evidence, only rhetoric (I’m not saying, by the way, that you aren’t intelligent…only that, given the irrationality of religious beliefs, rhetoric is often the only recourse).

  Christianity and Islam are two sides of the same coin—irrational belief based on arcane traditions as well as on worship of the supernatural. That one of these religions’ believers points out the contradictions in a competing faith while ignoring or explaining away the contradictions in his own should come as no surprise. That’s simply how the religious mind operates.

  Otherwise religion wouldn’t exist.

• 328 Rock Slatestone // Sep 7, 2006 at 10:50 pm

  If the mayor of New Orleans is alone in a forest and feels a little guilt for not getting his people on a bus would he be right or wrong?

• 329 Darthmeister // Sep 8, 2006 at 4:46 am

  That one fo these religions’ believers points out the contradicitons in a competing faith while ignoring or explaining aways the contradictions in his own should come as no surpirse. That’s simply how the religious mind operates.

  And your religious mind also seems to be operating quite well, too, Godfrey.

  And what, praytell, are we to make of a person who continues lying to themselves about the true nature of their own belief? Not even a Supreme Court decision about the religious nature of atheist thought seems to phase your denial that atheism isn’t a religion with its own doctrines of faith which do make certain dogmatic, unproveable statements about the existence or non-existence of God. Good one, sir.

  BTW, your non sequitor about how incorporating individual’s eyewitness truthful perspectives somehow undermines the concept of the infallibility of Holy Writ and its core teachings about the existence of a Creator is rather flabbergasting, if I’m understanding you correctly. And why would I want to read another book’s fanciful account about how the Bible supposedly came into existence (as if I haven’t been bored to tears with the other fifteen or so I’ve read on this topic the last thirty years) when all I have to do is Google the issue and find any number of atheist/skeptic sites that regurgitate pretty much the same ol’ same ol’ atheist screeds?

  Your statement is actually hypocritical, Hank, and here’s why: despite his lambasting of Christianity Adam Gadahn is more like you then he is like me.

  Guilty conscience, Godfrey? Where did I include you in my statement about that Islamofascist nutbag? I posted that in reference to some vitriolic conversations I’ve had with liberal atheists who were villifying conservative Christians just as this yahoo was doing. Thank you for your overt slander toward me and your overwrought emotional presumptiousness. And you are suppose the represent the epitome of logical thought and analysis? If you can’t even control yourself with respect to some five sentence post I made, then how in the world do you set yourself up as judge of something far more complex and nuanced as the Bible? Physician, heal thyself.

  Think about it, Godfrey, this time think about what I’ve said.

• 330 top ten suggested katie couric sign-offs :: all-encompassingly :: blog // Sep 8, 2006 at 10:40 am

  [...] via scrappleface under the title, CBS Reveals Top 10 Couric Sign-Off Suggestions. other posts of note on the front page: *One Year Later, Some Katrina Victims Still Slow to Respond *Bush: B-2 Flights Over Tehran for ‘Peaceful Purposes’ Posted by travis in travis, humor | [...]

• 331 Godfrey // Sep 8, 2006 at 5:11 pm

  Hank:

  “Not even a Supreme Court decision about the religious nature of atheist…”

  If a court classifies people according to religious beliefs it makes sense to classify atheism as a legal “religion” in order to make sure all religious and non-religious citizens are “covered” under the First Amendment’s umbrella. The decision you are perhaps referring to actually ruled that atheism should be “treated” as a religion in order not to infringe on the rights of a particular prison inmate’s right to form an atheist study group; i.e. in order that his rights not be violated based on a presumption of religion’s validity (therefore invalidating non-religious views).

  But if you’re talking about the actual definition of the word “religion” as per the dictionary it would be quite a stretch to call a lack of belief a “religion”:

  Religion is defined as:

  1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

  Atheism at its core is a set of non-beliefs. So it’s not a religion in any literal sense of the word. You are using the word metaphorically, however, in which case you can call anything a “religion”, as in “I exercise religiously”.

  But like most rhetoric, accusing atheism of being a “religion” is (perhaps unintentionally) dishonest. I assume you are trying to equate atheism with religion in order to 1) level the playing field and 2) paint atheists as hypocrites. It is, in short, a trick. If one’s arguments are valid, rhetorical trickery should be unnecessary.

  …unprovable statements about the existence or non-existence…

  Only statements about existence are provable. You cannot prove a negative. For instance, I cannot prove that hyper-intelligent purple toadmen do not exist. But it is intellectually incumbent upon someone claiming that they do to provide evidence for their claim. The burden of proof lies eternally upon the person making the claim, not upon those asking for proof. Atheism is not “dogmatic”. It merely says “okay, show me” and in the absence of evidence properly concludes that a claim is false.

  That is not to say, of course, that atheists cannot be dogmatic in their belief. They most certainly can and often are. They are, after all, only people, and it is human nature for a belief, once accepted, to become reflexive. This is a weakness shared by both atheists and theists alike.

  I have far more respect for a theist (you, for instance) who has researched and attempted to refine his system of belief than I do for an atheist who says “I dunno, I just don’t believe is all.” An opinion based on ignorance or apathy is worthless. In that way you and I are much more alike that might be apparent at first blush.

  ”Where did I include you in my statement about that Islamofascist nutbag?”

  Was I presumptive in concluding that you were referring to me personally by linking to the anti-Bible terrorist video? Perhaps I was. But look at it from my point of view: we were engaged in a conversation about religion, at that point particularly about the Bible’s origins. And the towel-wearing, hairy-faced fellow was talking about…the origins of the Bible. And you said “What should a person think when their anti-Bible views are echoed by an Islamofascist virtually verbatim?” Is it really such a stretch to think you were referring to me?

  And yet I’ll take you at your word. You have generally been willing to engage in civil discourse regarding a topic that I know carries a lot of emotional/spiritual weight for you, and you definitely deserve credit for that. We are obviously miles apart on this topic, but I think the exchange of ideas has benefited us both. It never hurts to have one’s own thought processes exposed to the light of another’s intellect.

  I value our interaction on the subject and so I offer you my sincere apology if I took that particular post out of context.

• 332 allan37 // Sep 8, 2006 at 6:06 pm

  I realize most of you don’t like Pelosi,but I think she is right. It’s time that we all realized that the people who just take and expect everything to be done for them need to learn to rely on themself not the government. If you are too old or disabled to help yourself. There a few of those. But most are able they just learned if you cry enough the gov will give you what you want.Get over yourself we all have our cross to bare,most of us help ourself,it feels better.

• 333 Godfrey // Sep 8, 2006 at 6:45 pm

  allan37 re: #332: how adorably clueless your post is. But I’ll let you in on a little secret: this is a satirical news site. The joke of the above piece is that the real Nancy Pelosi wouldn’t take an affirmative position on personal responsibility if she had an Uzi to her head.

• 334 Entitlement Mentality | Ocean Guy // Jun 16, 2007 at 10:26 am

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• 335 Gala Bingo // Jun 19, 2008 at 2:15 pm

  Gala Bingo…

  Gala Bingo…

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